Islamic honor killing in Texas: "Santa" who murdered family on Christmas morning was Muslim who didn't like his daughter dating a non-Muslim

Considering that he killed his entire family, it's pretty obviously not an honor killing and instead is a classic case of simple familicide.

The guy would not let his daughter date outside of his race and religion - this is a corroborated fact, not an assumption. Is there any non-religious reason that one would make such demands? So why the hell would you not draw a connection between the cold blooded murders and the fact that the daughter was disobeying his religiously oriented demands? I think "honor killing" is a perfectly plausable description for what happened - even if he did snap.

Future History, that might be plausible if he hadn't killed his son, and his wife... do you think he killed them because his daughter was dating outside their religion, or do you think he killed his whole family and then himself just like many non-muslims do because he was facing the loss of everything he ever had, from his home, to his family, and could not cope?

If you want to place blame for this on something other than the perpetrator, you'd be better off blaming the cutback in state funding for mental health care that might have prevented this.

that might be plausible if he hadn't killed his son, and his wife... do you think he killed them because his daughter was dating outside their religion, or do you think he killed his whole family

Reading up on the story it sounds like a classic honor killing. He was mad at the daughter for her Western ways, he was angry at his wife for initiating the divorce, he was angry and ashamed that his wife wanted to work outside the house, he felt betrayed by the son that left with mom when he threw mom out of the family home. He was furious that the lot of them were celebrating Christmas with the Christian that princess was dating.

It doesn't sound like money. They were bankrupt and wiped out. The wife wasn't getting anything. He wasn't paying alimony. He had the nice family home as the wife was in this rathole apartment.

The guy sounds like a strict old world religious nut according to his family and friends. He came from a nation where people are still stoned to death for less. He did the culturally acceptable thing to do for his shame and that thing is to kill everyone.

I'm curious why everybody is focusing on the religion aspect of this tragedy.

I guess it helps build the fear of Islam like most "christians" want. Pretty pathetic IMHO.

There are stories nearly every day on non-Muslim men going berserk and killing their wives and children or their coworkers or fellow students. Sounds like a male thing to me more so than a religious thing. Oddly enough when the dad is Christian people refuse to blame religion even though religion shapes people.

I guess it helps build the fear of Islam

That's exactly what it's all about.

Would it truly be more comforting to think this is just another average man, a little fed up, with a gun, who randomly without warning shoots his entire family in cold blood on any given day?

Comfort has nothing to do with it. However, if one is interested in the truth, it's easy to see that using this tragedy of a man pushed too far by the circumstances of his life (bankruptcy, foreclosure, a failed marriage and other family issues, one which happens to be trying to overly-control a teenaged daughter ) for anti-Muslim propaganda is pretty dispicable.

Would it truly be more comforting to think this is just another average man, a little fed up, with a gun, who randomly without warning shoots his entire family in cold blood on any given day?

Yes it would be more comforting. If it was a run of the mill nut we know his actions would not be perceived as doing the right thing in his culture. When it is an honor killing the murderer is doing something perceived as a positive thing in his culture. The honor killer ends their shame not causes it in the eyes of their people.

An honor killing is culturally acceptable murder. The typical kill the wife and kids murder is not. That is a big difference.

on any given day?

It wasn't any given day. It was the day of one of the holiest holidays of the hated boyfriend's faith.

It wasn't any given day. It was the day of one of the holiest holidays of the hated boyfriend's faith.

Or, it was a day when the whole family got together in one place at one time.

Or, it was a day when the whole family got together in one place at one time.

The mother, daughter and son lived there every day for almost a year, it was their home. This man chose Christmas day for a specific reason.

This man chose Christmas day for a specific reason.

Yes, and it could have been as simple as: that's the day the rest of the family was there - his 58 year old sister, her husband and their child, who were also murdered.

Most of us do not support shooting our entire family. It is wrong for every reason. PERIOD.... This man is a psychopathic killer, whether or not you believe he is a man of "Perfect" faith. I do hope some day soon, you will withdraw your support for religious barbarism, regardless if it's Christian, Muslim, Zeus or Frosty the Snowman.

Your comment is irrational, as I in no way said anything about this man and "Perfect" faith, nor have I showed support of any type of religious barbarism. I simply don't believe it is a factor in this case.

I'm sorry that you are so upset that someone has pointed out that calling this an "honor killing" is ridiculous and that you are now resorting to personal attacks. That's no way to enable adult, rational discourse, which you should be doing on your own seed.

Your comment has been reported as "inflammatory".

Would it truly be more comforting to think this is just another average man, a little fed up, with a gun, who randomly without warning shoots his entire family in cold blood on any given day?

Yes. It's obvious that religion has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Put any religious bias opinions aside and think about that for a moment Jeremy-17

I have. I ask the question in an attempt to get others to do the same.

In the past 10 years I've spent as much time in Islamic countries as I have in "Christian" countries (like the US). By far, the people in the Islamic countries are more curtious, friendly and willing to help others than they are in the "christian" countries.

I do hope some day soon, you will withdraw your support for religious barbarism...

In order for somebody to do that would mean they would have to relieve themselves of the burdon of religion all together. There isn't a single religion that hasn't used discrimination, humiliation, murder, torture and war to further its agenda.

Jeremy, how are women of different faiths treated in the unnamed Muslim countries better than the US you vaguely mentioned?

They are treated well. They are protected by the males of the family and have more say in things that most Americans think. Unfortunately the media coverage here at home is only concerned with body counts and the bloodshed so we don't get the true feeling in those countries.

And these contries include Iraq, Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Turkey.

I can agree that it's a male thing. It's only also a religious thing(and it doesn't matter much which religion) because most religions were created by men, for men, in order to justify horrendous atrocities such as this. After that, it really becomes a vicious cycle.

It is not uncommon to see women in full burka, walking ten paces behind their husbands, and may not speak a word.

The only places that I've seen that has been in former Taliban held villages in Afghanistan and occasionally here in the US. I'm not quite sure why it's worn in the US. Most of my Muslim friends don't understand it themselves.

Being military myself I end up in Afghanistan every other year and have seen a lot of changes for the better after each deployment. The health care is imporving as well as the education opportunities for women.

In other words, I care more about equality, freedom of speech, and human rights, than offending the religious. It at time seems, I am in the minority.

I don't think you are the minority.

most religions were created by men, for men, in order to justify horrendous atrocities such as this

I agree. If I may add, it seems to be a way to control the masses well.

Barb your criticisms of me are welcomed here, but if you do not like my comments, you can ignore author.

I criticized your comment to me, which was quite irrational and not based on any actual occurence. Commenting is one thing - making things up is something totally different.

Barb, you can not have it both ways.

Once again, I don't see any sense in what you're saying. No one has said that killing other gor god is good (at least I haven't noticed it on this seed). So, why you keep harping on that non-aspect in the discussion is totally beyond me.

I simply don't believe that this guy took out his whole family and himself because he didn't like the guy his daughter was seeing. I think he did it because of financial pressure and his family falling apart, just like my co-worker did in 2001.

I can see an issue that might be an "honor killing", but to kill your whole extended family and yourself?

What if you felt all of them dishonored and embarrassed you before your peers? A Muslim woman that divorces her husband against his wishes is a big no no. So is the ungrateful son that chooses his mother and slut sister over his father.

It doesn't seem a long shot that the man was dishonored in his culture by these events and he handled the matter as culturally expected. The guy sounds like a religious nut. Nailing the daughter's windows closed to keep her pure is a bit much. I imagine his buddies gave him @!$%# about a daughter dating a Christian, a wife that left him, a son that betrayed him and his family celebrating Christmas.

It doesn't seem a long shot that the man was dishonored in his culture by these events and he handled the matter as culturally expected.

Oh, please. I had a co-worker who murdered his wife and children and even killed the family dog before killing himself, probably due to economic conditions after 9/11 (he was one of our investment officers), and some problems with his wife. He had no culture of "death for dishonor" (he was Methodist), he just went over the edge due to financial/family problems.

And, the linked article is zoning in on the problems with the daughter - and I say they are way off and using the actions of a man pushed over the edge by a lot of different things going on in his life in order to push anti-Muslim propaganda.

Actually, I find the photo of those women in burkas far more frightening than any possibility the only reason this guy killed his family was because he was ticked at his daughter. I just don't buy that was the only reason with a guy who went bankrupt, was recently separated from wife/family and whose house was going into foreclosure.

Barb, you inhaled and posted again. Stop that please.

This is part of the Islamic culture.

I say they are way off and using the actions of a man pushed over the edge by a lot of different things going on in his life in order to push anti-Muslim propaganda.

I don't think it is as simple as a guy that lost his mind and killed his family. This man treated his wife and daughter like @!$%# before Christmas day. It might not be a honor killing but the beliefs about women and their handling is the same. This cultural disrespect of women is seen in this case, classic honor killings, the Western world honor killings, the rape epidemic in Sweden and the treatment of women in the Muslim world.

This guy held those views of women according to the reports. He nailed his daughters window shut to keep her from dating, was furious that she dated outside her faith, was outraged his wife divorced him, angered that she worked outside the home and felt his son betrayed him. I think it is fair to say this man was conservative in his religious and cultural values. He seems to have made the choice to follow traditional cultural values instead of modern American ones.

Even if not a text book honor killing the man seemed to accept the belief system about women that allows culturally acceptable killing of bad women, the people that defend them and raping of women from other cultures.

I had a co-worker who murdered his wife and children and even killed the family dog before killing himself

Was he texting his buddies messages about basically saying he was going to kill his wife earier in the year? Unlike some one that snaps this guy was texting friends about dying in the town he doesn't live in but that is ex wife and kids just moved to. the daughter texted her friend that night that her dad was acting nice and not crazied. He brought twpoo guns This crime seems a bit premeditated and not someone that snapped.

This is part of the Islamic culture.

I understand that "honor killing" certainly seems prevalent in Islamic culture. I just don't think it was the main reason for wiping out an entire family in this instance.

It might not be a honor killing but the beliefs about women and their handling is the same.

I've never argued any differently. It's just in this instance, I don't see taking out wife, daughter, son, himself, sister, brother-in-law and nephew as something that was based on his honor in regards to the daughter - there was just so much more going on. Let's face it, the usual "standard" is to take out the offending female, usually with the help of the rest of the men in the family. That certainly was not the situation here.

It might not be a honor killing but the beliefs about women and their handling is the same.

I've never argued any differently. It's just in this instance, I don't see taking out wife, daughter, son, himself, sister, brother-in-law and nephew as something that was based on his honor in regards to the daughter

I agree it is not clear cut. I lean to the murders having a culturally influenced motive more then the just went crazy motive. If the guy didn't act like a religious nut before the killings I would lean more towards financial pressure and family betrayal. I think likely all three came into play.

Whether this specific case was an honor killing or not means little. The important issue is how culture influences honor killings in the Western world and the drastic increase of rapes in countries such as Sweden.

Geeze, now we're totally off topic and talking about rapes in Sweden.

Too much of an obvious agenda here for sticking to rational discussion of the topic, I guess.

Detracking.

now we're totally off topic and talking about rapes in Sweden.

It's not off topic. They are both examples of how cultural attitudes toward women cause a series of related crimes in the Western world. This view of women causes honor killings, these gang rapes and similar offenses.

Few things are @!$%#ting in the punch bowl quite like bring up the European rape issue. It is little surprise that it's a "Shut up Bitch" topic.