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King Dave "An atheist is something I am, not something I do" ~ Christopher Hitchens
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Hitler Was a Christian ~ ** Warning, Graphic ** ~ Serious discussion only ~

Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:01 PM EDT
religion, islam, christianity, atheism, hitler, christopher-hitchens
By King Dave
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The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:

 

    History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed.  Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus.  However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

    Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay.  It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier.  My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime.  This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know.  It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning Nazi Germany.)  So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church.  2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism.  3) Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society.  4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.

 

Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school.  (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.”  His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest.  Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals.  As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”  -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church.  Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy.  In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican.  Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church.  This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.”  Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church.  The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education.  This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin.  It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday.  The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Christopher Hitchens on Hitler and Christianity.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.”  (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law.  He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home.  Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.  It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.”  –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.”  -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

 

How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education.  Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians.  The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus.  Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years.  The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion.  In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2.  Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German priest, professor of theology and iconic figure of the Protestant Reformation

Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty.  The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power.  Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933.  This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.

 

How the Nazi Regime converted the people:

a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution).  In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race.  The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession...”

b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children.  Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence.  Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.”  – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

women and children

c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear.  An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”.  For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring
peace, but a sword." ~Jesus Christ~ King James Bible ~ Matthew 19:24

g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens.  If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.

 

Quotes from Hitler:

    Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany.  Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views.  The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

    “National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles.  In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement.  Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us.  At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief.  But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord…  Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed.  Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.”  -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.  [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith.  We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism.  Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy.  The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

    Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!  was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…  And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."  –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed.  The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    "Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars.  Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

    "The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."  -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

    "With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own.  Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)     

    “The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself.  His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine.  Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence.  In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    "…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion."  -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins.  Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”  –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    “The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”  –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race.  That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success.  This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.”  –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:

    "Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide."  (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)

This entire article was ripped from: http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

All of the essays from "The Church of Theists Suck" were written by Charlotte and most were previously posted in her own "Theists Suck" website which is no longer in existence.  She gave permission to freely copy and distribute her essays, they are not copyrighted.

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King Dave
  • It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently—though isn't it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed? ~ Sam Harris Letter to a Christian Nation (2006), pages 11-12
  • Please share your thoughts and/or criticisms, as they are always welcomed. With the sensitivity of the subject matter, please follow the CoH.
  • Thank you.

    • 7 votes
    #1 - Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:06 PM EDT
    ndeepnowExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

    Hitler was not Christian .. flagged for being inaccurate.

    • 4 votes
    #1.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:55 AM EDT
    foodbaby

    ooooo that's right ndeep, te standard if someone does something bad then you get to say oh they aren't a christian. But then again you just came in didn't back up your statment. so your comment flagged as no value. gee arbitrary branding is fun.

    • 5 votes
    #1.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:59 PM EDT
    TR-421173

    Just the usual "No True Scotsman" ploy. Which is of course a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them.

    • 7 votes
    #1.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 PM EDT
    Mr. Roger Rabbit

    He was also a socialist and the defender of workers, and a failed artist? What is your point? I do not recall anyone submitting his name to Vatican for sainthood. Pol Pot and Stalin were atheist - what does that make you? Seriously?

    • 4 votes
    #1.4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:18 PM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    Just the usual "No True Scotsman" ploy.

    And if someone does something bad like genocide in the Officially Atheist Soviet Union, somebody like Stalin, Atheists are fond of saying he wasn't a real Atheist.

    if someone does something bad then you get to say oh they aren't a christian.

    For clarification, if a person doesn't believe in or follow Christ The Lord, he or she is NOT a Christian.

    • 3 votes
    #1.5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
    kaviaq

    somebody like Stalin, Atheists are fond of saying he wasn't a real Atheist.

    I don't know any atheists who claim he wasn't one. If he said he was he probably was. And he used forced atheism to make sure people worshipped the State instead of religion. Hitler used religion, Stalin used the State. All we say is that the organic atheism occurring now in places like Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan is NOT the same as that forced on people by a Totalitarian regime.

    Being atheist says nothing about a person's character. An atheist can be the nicest person in the world or a complete bastard. And why not? We have no tenets, no rules, and nothing in common with each other. It is simply a LACK of belief in a god, it is NOT a cohesive group. Religion DOES have rules, and its adherents are a cohesive group. So things can be done "in the name of" religion, in a way that you can't do with atheism.

    • 9 votes
    #1.6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:14 PM EDT
    foodbaby

    Kaviaq , perfectly said

    • 3 votes
    #1.7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:20 PM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    Kavlaq,

    Just because a person claims he is acting in the name of GOD doesn't mean he is. Jesus Christ said to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" and false prophets. If there were no danger, He wouldn't have to tell believers, at least, to beware.

    Obviously a person can put on the outward trappings of being religious, or a christian, without actually being one. I remember reading an article on NV which dealt with atheists in our government who are afraid to come out publicly as atheists. People may mistake such government officials for Christians because of their outward show. This, in my view, is precisely what Hitler took advantage of.

    Jesus Christ said by their fruits, we will know them, meaning the false prophets. "A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit." Hitler was not acting like a Christian when he committed his atrocities. Hitler brought forth bad fruit. I don't think anyone intelligent will argue that.

    As for your remarks about Stalin, it is easier to be an Atheist because people don't expect a certain standard of behavior from you. It is much easier for an Atheist to be hypocritical, because no one is keeping track. There is no accountability. As you said, no rules, no tenets.

    And when an Atheist like Stalin, commits genocide, instead of acting on much touted Atheist rationality and humanism, well that's just as bad as someone saying they're Christian to fool the religious, and then acting in a manner that is totally unChristian.

    When atheists point to Hitler and accuse him of being a christian, for whatever their motives, yet completely overlook the great mass killings, (some estimates have it at 8 to 61 million) perpetrated by an officially secular, atheist, godless government like the Soviet Union under the atheist Stalin, which were more numerous than the Nazi holocaust, it smacks of a certain double standard and disingenuousness.

    • 5 votes
    #1.8 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:23 PM EDT
    kaviaq

    Wow you totally are not getting this.

    It is much easier for an Atheist to be hypocritical

    See?? WTF? Hypocritical of WHAT?? What part of no tenets did you not get?

    instead of acting on much touted Atheist rationality and humanism

    See, again. You are just making stuff up. Not all atheists are humanists. Atheism is ONLY: not believing in god. Period...nothing else. Are all atheists rational? I doubt it. Rational people may TEND to be atheists, but it doesn't mean all atheists are necessarily rational.

    Hitler was not acting like a Christian when he committed his atrocities.

    Perhaps not YOUR idea of what a Christian is. But he certainly could use the Bible to back up everything he did. Have you READ that book? It can be used to excuse the Crusades, the Inquisition AND slavery. YOU may filter it through your own personal morality and be a "good" Christian, but the book itself is NOT good.

    • 6 votes
    #1.9 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:32 PM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    But he certainly could use the Bible to back up everything he did. Have you READ that book?

    Kavlaq,

    What statements did Hitler make that were from the Bible, or supported by New Testament Christianity? He mentioned GOD alot but he could have merely been a deist, if that. Atheists seem ready to jump at the idea that he was a Christian, but disallow the same standard of measure when applied to the Founding Fathers asserting that they were not Christians though they referenced GOD frequently.

    BTW, I meant no offense to you or other atheists by my last point. It was just what I have observed.

    • 3 votes
    #1.10 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:44 PM EDT
    gordy327

    Atheists seem ready to jump at the idea that he was a Christian, but disallow the same standard of measure when applied to the Founding Fathers asserting that they were not Christians though they referenced GOD frequently.

    The religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers is well known, but otherwise irrelevant toward the founding of this country. What we are asserting more is that the Founding Fathers did not establish a "christian nation" as some christians like to believe or claim.

    Just because a person claims he is acting in the name of GOD doesn't mean he is. Jesus Christ said to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" and false prophets.

    No True Scotsman?

    it is easier to be an Atheist because people don't expect a certain standard of behavior from you. It is much easier for an Atheist to be hypocritical, because no one is keeping track. There is no accountability.

    That has nothing to do with atheism, as kaviaq pointed out.

    yet completely overlook the great mass killings, (some estimates have it at 8 to 61 million) perpetrated by an officially secular, atheist, godless government like the Soviet Union under the atheist Stalin

    Which also has nothing to do with atheism itself. Stalin didn't do what he did out of some atheist ideology.

    • 3 votes
    #1.11 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:53 AM EDT
    beej mcl

    Rank on Rank

    For clarification, if a person doesn't believe in or follow Christ The Lord, he or she is NOT a Christian.

    by your statement;

    then we must conclude that all these self proclaimed christians who believe in the death penalty are not christians at all. the death penalty is based on the old eye for an eye deal, but christ said DON'T DO THAT.

    todays christians have quit following christ and have no right to call themselves christian until they once again learn to treat others the way that christ said they should. not matthew, mark, luke, john, peter or paul, but by the words the christ child jesus gave his followers for a pattern to live their lives by.

    • 4 votes
    #1.12 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:28 AM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    then we must conclude that all these self proclaimed christians who believe in the death penalty are not christians at all. the death penalty is based on the old eye for an eye deal, but christ said DON'T DO THAT.

    Beej,

    I reject your idea that the death penalty is a result of of an eye for an eye. Actually the death penalty was instituted much earlier by GOD. Jesus nowhere says that there should be no death penalty. Jesus lived in Roman occupied territory. Never did He once complain that the Romans were carrying it out.

    todays christians have quit following christ and have no right to call themselves christian

    You should familiarize yourself with the New Testament, including "matthew, mark, luke, john, peter or paul," so you will know what Christianity actually is before you go around 'judging' others. Jesus Christ definitely said not to do that.

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:06 AM EDT
    beej mcl

    why do christians insist on living by the jewish law when jesus said that the way now is through him.

    i guess we should return to not eating pig if we are going to use the argument that this was "instituted much earlier by god". if you want to live by the law, live by all of it, you either believe it is all for today or not. you cannot pick and choose the parts you want to follow.

    my problem is not with the words attributed to christ in how we should treat people. my problem is with today's christians who insist that we all have to live by the jewish law that their own scripture says is not how we are to act as a christians in the treatment of others. laws that are based on traditions, customs and doctrines of man beyond that which was given to moses for their guidance was exactly what jesus spoke against, yet today we find the same intolerance of the pharisees creeping up in the christian communities across the country.

    there is something wrong with today's christianity.

    • 2 votes
    #1.14 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:56 AM EDT
    The Gunshark

    Atheists seem ready to jump at the idea that he was a Christian, but disallow the same standard of measure when applied to the Founding Fathers asserting that they were not Christians though they referenced GOD frequently.

    They were deists. Just because they referenced divine providence or a creator does not mean that they were Christians.

    But who needs thought or reason when a contrived agenda will do all the thinking for you?

    • 3 votes
    #1.15 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:53 AM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    They were deists. Just because they referenced divine providence or a creator does not mean that they were Christians.

    Gunshark,

    If what you say is true, then just because Hitler referenced GOD does not mean that he was a Christian. If he believed in the existence of GOD at all, he was a deist. Same standard of measure by which you conclude the FF were deists also applies to Hitler. There is no difference.

    • 1 vote
    #1.16 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:19 PM EDT
    The Gunshark

    If he believed in the existence of GOD at all, he was a deist. Same standard of measure by which you conclude the FF were deists also applies to Hitler.

    Okay, to clarify so you can understand this.

    No, it is because Hitler specifically referenced Jesus in a Godly manner. The Founding Fathers that were deists either never really did, did because they thought he was a moral teacher and nothing more or referenced him in the case of rejecting Trinitarian dogma. There are numerous quotes made by Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and other figures of the American Revolution to support this and make a critical differentiation between them and the Founders that were Christian like John Jay.

    Divine Providence and such terminology belongs to deist thought. Lord and Savior, along with other such terminology, is explicitly referenced in Christianity. Guess which one Hitler used?

    • 4 votes
    #1.17 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:57 PM EDT
    Rank on Rank

    No, it is because Hitler specifically referenced Jesus in a Godly manner.

    Prove it.

    The Founding Fathers that were deists either never really did, did because they thought he was a moral teacher and nothing more or referenced him in the case of rejecting Trinitarian dogma.

    Prove that the Founding Fathers thought of Jesus not as Lord and Savior but as just a moral teacher.

      #1.18 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:58 PM EDT
      beej mcl

      you claim to be a christian. you are, as a christian to believe, judge not lest ye be judged. hitler claimed he was a christian and that makes him available to god for his judgement not to you. you, according to what your saviour taught are to take the claim and accept that hitler belonged to god for that judgement. it is not anybodies responsibility to prove or disprove hitlers statement. if he made it he is the only one with that responsibility and that is not to man. only to god.

      without using the term faith (which has to do with things unseen) or belief (which is only opinion), prove that you yourself are a christian. by their fruits ye shall know them gives us no physical proof.

      that is what you are asking of another, step up to the plate and put your proof on the table. you talk a good game, but so do quite a few preachers who have had to spend time in jail for crimes against others.

      if you are one simply because you call yourself one, you cannot question another at their word.

      PROVE IT how adult.

      • 3 votes
      #1.19 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:17 PM EDT
      The Gunshark

      Prove that the Founding Fathers thought of Jesus not as Lord and Savior but as just a moral teacher.

      What part of "The Founding Fathers that were deists" did you not understand?

      Prove it.

      Dude, have you even read the post itself?

      • 4 votes
      #1.20 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
      TruettCollins

      What part of SOME of the founding fathers were deists while others were not do you not understand?

      • 1 vote
      #1.21 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:11 PM EDT
      Rank on Rank

      So Gunshark, you have no proof for your assertions about Hitler or the Founding Fathers. Thanks for playing.

        #1.22 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:58 PM EDT
        King Dave

        Pol Pot and Stalin were atheist

        somebody like Stalin, Atheists are fond of saying he wasn't a real Atheist.

        That's only because he was not an atheist, he was a man of deep religious faith.

        Stalin spent three years at the seminary in Tiflis (now Tbilisi), the capital of Georgia, to study to become a priest,

        • 2 votes
        #1.23 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:42 PM EDT
        Rank on Rank

        Stalin spent three years at the seminary in Tiflis (now Tbilisi), the capital of Georgia, to study to become a priest,

        So, King Dave, you don't think that there are any Atheists who come from a religious backround. Interesting.

          #1.24 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:01 PM EDT
          The Gunshark

          So Gunshark, you have no proof for your assertions about Hitler or the Founding Fathers. Thanks for playing.

          For starters, read this post for quotes made by Hitler about his thoughts on Jesus being, among other things, a "Lord and Savior" who was a fighter that motivated his anti-semitism.

          As for the Founding Fathers, let's focus on just three for the moment. Perhaps you can explain why Thomas Jefferson created a Bible that stripped all mention of Jesus as a divine character? Or better yet, why he said this (emphasis is mine):

          Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

          Here is something from Benjamin Franklin in a letter to Ezra Stiles:

          "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity."

          Moral teacher? Perhaps. Divine Avatar? Doubtful.

          Another one from John Adams to his Son:

          "An incarnate God!!! An eternal, self-existent, omnipresent omniscient Author of this stupendous Universe, suffering on a Cross!!! My Soul starts with horror, at the Idea, and it has stupified the Christian World. It has been the Source of almost all of the Corruptions of Christianity."

          John Adams to John Quincy Adams, March 28, 1816.

          • 3 votes
          #1.25 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:12 AM EDT
          Socrates1

          On the other hand, I guess you'd have to agree that at least Jefferson and Franklin supported the values of Christianity.....which is more to the point.

            #1.26 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:16 AM EDT
            Rank on Rank

            As for the Founding Fathers, let's focus on just three for the moment.

            Is that all you could find? Was that the majority consensus among the Founding Fathers?

            Perhaps you can explain why Thomas Jefferson created a Bible that stripped all mention of Jesus as a divine character?

            No, I can't. Can you? That's rather satanic, if you think about it. Antichrist.

            For starters, read this post for quotes made by Hitler about his thoughts on Jesus being, among other things, a "Lord and Savior" who was a fighter that motivated his anti-semitism.

            This is what most concerns the article and what I am most interested in. Produce quotes from Hitler calling Jesus of Nazareth his Lord and Savior. If you do that, then I might consider that Hitler may have at one time been a Christian.

              #1.27 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:26 AM EDT
              King Dave

              So, King Dave, you don't think that there are any Atheists who come from a religious backround. Interesting.

              His religious study was instrumental in executing his politics. The Bible is a slaughter fest from beginning to end. Garbage in, garbage out.

              You would thing anyone who reads the bible would be smart enough to realize it's a book, a fictional book. But that is not the case. Stalin took advantage of religious credulity, as almost every dictator in history has.

              Do you see any similarities in Christianity from ancient cultures, where rulers claimed their various gods had anointed them god kings for nefarious reasons? Christianity was an obscure death cult before the Roman emperorConstantine mandated it's worship, in order to destroy expel other religions and ethnic groups, not their gold. Do you get it now?

              • 2 votes
              #1.28 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:43 AM EDT
              CommisarCain

              That's only because he was not an atheist, he was a man of deep religious faith.

              This is entirely untrue. Joseph Stalin was an avowed atheist who hated religion.

              emperorConstantine mandated it's worship

              Constantine did not mandate Christianity, he legalized it.

              • 1 vote
              #1.29 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:34 AM EDT
              Reply
              NewJack25Deleted
              InHimIAm

              In my opinion Catholicism cannot be considered true Christianity. They have false idols, pagan holy days which have no biblical basis and the Vatican has done its best to hide from the masses very important information that is not exclusively theirs to control. It is at best a false Christianity and at worst a Satanic deception. Its no surprise that Hitler was a Catholic...but he was never a true Christian.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:42 AM EDT
              foodbaby

              I know a lot of catholics that will completely disagree with your judgmental opinion of catholicism.

              • 3 votes
              #3.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:00 PM EDT
              TR-421173

              See 1.3

              • 5 votes
              #3.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 PM EDT
              SouthLa

              InHimIam,

              I was raised Catholic, and while no longer religous ( I believe Jesus existed, I just don't believe he did magic tricks), I still have respect for the institution. Yes, the Catholic Church definitely has it's problems, but so does everyone else.

              And if you consider yourself a christian, do the words, "Judge not lest ye be judged" ring a bell?

              • 3 votes
              #3.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:13 PM EDT
              Reply
              Rank on Rank

              You are, of course, free to interpret the Bible differently—though isn't it amazing that you have succeeded in discerning the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed?

              I don't really care what those who were raised in the Catholic Church tradition thought or wrote in ages past. If they contradict the Bible, or Jesus' teachings, then they were wrong. So what they wrote cannot be called true Christianity.

              As for true Christianity, people succeed in believing the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles in the New Testament every day without resorting to commentary by Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin, or Luther.

              GOD is revealing much more now than was revealed during their lifetimes.

              • 3 votes
              #4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:31 AM EDT
              The Gunshark

              If they contradict the Bible, or Jesus' teachings, then they were wrong.

              A contradiction of the Bible, huh? I suppose that you've never read the Book of Titus, then? Emphasis is mine.

              10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

              11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

              12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

              13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

              14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

              15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

              16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

              • 4 votes
              #4.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:41 AM EDT
              Rank on Rank

              Gunshark,

              Your point isn't immediately clear. What does your post have to do with what I wrote? I find no contradiction in the Epistle to Titus. Nor how it is pertinent to the article.

              • 2 votes
              #4.2 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:12 PM EDT
              King Dave

              That is another key distinction between atheists and those who put their religion in front of everyone else. 9 comments and a religious apologist after reading the article, and pictures of what is the worst humanity had to offer, the religious criticisms is the only thing he found offensive. With religious principles such as that, and a pulpit to spew them, we can now see how atrocities are executed.

              • 5 votes
              #4.3 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:52 PM EDT
              The Gunshark

              With religious principles such as that, and a pulpit to spew them, we can now see how atrocities are executed.

              I heard that.

              We would never have a verse like the one I mentioned above if there wasn't at least some hatred of the Jews in the early Christian dogma.

              The only problem is that they had to kill him to fulfill the "plan", however nonsensical it is.

              • 3 votes
              #4.4 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:02 PM EDT
              Rank on Rank

              That is another key distinction between atheists and those who put their religion in front of everyone else.

              King Dave,

              Yes, Atheists are better than everybody else on the planet. Everybody knows that.

              Self righteous much?

              Gunshark,

              Hatred of Jews? You mean like the Apostles whom Christians revere? They were all Jewish. And don't forget our Savior and Messiah? Jewish.

              What damning proof of Christian anti-Semitism.

              • 2 votes
              #4.5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:06 PM EDT
              SouthLa

              Rank on Rank, which bible are you referring too? and whom are you to judge someone's Christianity and it's merits? Did God the Father give you a special dispensation? I think not, try to be more Christ like.

              and I'm sure that you celebrate Christmas sometime in Spring, because dec 25th IS a pagan holiday.

              • 2 votes
              #4.6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 PM EDT
              Rank on Rank

              SouthLa, I have no idea what you are talking about. Does it relate to the article or what I posted in any way?

                #4.7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:34 PM EDT
                SouthLa

                4.0

                • 1 vote
                #4.8 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:37 PM EDT
                jhoopy56

                GOD is revealing much more now than was revealed during their lifetimes.

                Except, well, you know, anything approaching empirical support for His existence...

                • 5 votes
                #4.9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:36 AM EDT
                Rank on Rank

                Except, well, you know, anything approaching empirical support for His existence...

                He considers the subject of His existence not up for debate. You either you choose to believe or you choose not to. Either you accept that He created the universe and life on earth or you don't. But once you believe and seek Him, He has so much to show you.

                  #4.10 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:56 PM EDT
                  TruettCollins

                  Except, well, you know, anything approaching empirical support for His existence...

                  It all boils down to who is looking at the subject....those who know the Lord see "empirical support" for his existence in all of creation...those who reject him don't.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.11 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:00 PM EDT
                  jhoopy56

                  He considers the subject of His existence not up for debate.

                  You seem quite willing to broker "His" will. So what does the Great Unseen like for breakfast?

                  those who know the Lord see "empirical support" for his existence in all of creation

                  Good thing you put empirical support in quotes -- abusing as you did its definition...

                  Apparently, religion forces folks to just make the most asinine observations. Please, do enjoy your delusions privately. Out here in the real world, they just make you look stilted, fearful and ignorant...

                  But certainly, once you have that evidence thingie for your particular sky fairy all good to go, do let me know...

                  • 6 votes
                  #4.12 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:40 PM EDT
                  TruettCollins

                  Really.....

                  Learners’ Dictionary Empirical = based on real experience or scientific experiments. based on real experience or scientific experiments rather than on theory.

                  philosophy derived as knowledge from experience, particularly from sensory observation, and not derived from the application of logic

                    #4.13 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:17 PM EDT
                    Rank on Rank

                    jhoop56,

                    Apparently, religion forces folks to just make the most asinine observations.

                    And Atheism seems to promote intolerance for people who believe differently than you do.

                    Please, do enjoy your delusions privately.

                    If by "delusions" you mean my Christian faith, I tend to be quite public about it.

                    Out here in the real world, they just make you look stilted, fearful and ignorant...

                    Really, that's interesting . . . because that's how godless atheists look to us.

                      #4.14 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:04 PM EDT
                      jhoopy56

                      And Atheism seems to promote intolerance for people who believe differently than you do.

                      No, just intolerance for the attempted promotion of assertion, in a forum for rational public debate, of pet dogmatic notions which lack evidentiary support. Note that honest citation is an (oft-abused) requirement of the COH.

                      If by "delusions" you mean my Christian faith, I tend to be quite public about it.

                      Yes. And this is called proselytizing. It is religious adware and has no business here. Again, please do enjoy yourself in private. Just do not be surprised or offended if you are called out when you presumptuously forward a religious notion in a public forum. It is silly on its face and intellectually without merit.

                      godless atheists

                      Yes, because the "godded" ones are certainly curious beasties (?!). Hence my comment on religious orientation driving asinine comments.

                      And Truett, pray do describe those bold experiences which you (selectively, no surprise there) culled from the full definitions you mined for "empirical". If we give you a god doll can you show us where Jesus touched you?

                      But sorry, TC, you do not get to corrupt the notion of empricism or what "evidence" means. You have a "feeling" -- and that's it. Could be yesterday's bruschetta talking and you would not know the difference, because what you "believe" requires no sensory or evidentiary vetting on your part.

                      Look, folks, I do not dispute humans' need of self-delusion or distraction -- and everyone gets to indulge in these, as long as they do not impinge on the social whole. You folks are *ahem* impinging when you attempt to establish some primal position for your pet fairytales.

                      And the point of the thread (long ago lost, I expect) is that religious delusion can make for the most heinous -- and sociopathic -- behaviors...

                      • 3 votes
                      #4.15 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:48 AM EDT
                      Reply
                      CommisarCain

                      The OSS documents on Hitler reveal that he wanted the Christians dead to. Hitler saw Christianity as a scourge on mankind.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#5 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:35 AM EDT
                      Rank on Rank

                      Hitler saw Christianity as a scourge on mankind.

                      You mean the way Atheists do?

                        #5.1 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:04 AM EDT
                        Reply
                        Holly-348328

                        Thank you for an informative essay and unique opinion of Hitler's motives and philosophy. I don't know enough about Hitler to refute what you are saying, but I have no problem seeing the truth in it.

                        • 4 votes
                        Reply#6 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:30 PM EDT
                        Socrates1

                        And practically buried at the bottom??

                        Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans,he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reichby Albert Speer page 95-96)

                        Bold face added by me....

                        So his followers left because the church was obstinately opposing his plans and he remained a nominal Catholic although he no real attachment to it.

                        Any questions?

                        • 4 votes
                        Reply#7 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:50 PM EDT
                        TruettCollins

                        It boils down to Hitler CLAIMED to be Christian.....anyone can claim anything but that does not make it true.......

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#8 - Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 PM EDT
                        lastofall

                        You ought not to be naive as to supposing that everyone that says they are a Christian are a Christian.  If you were to at all know the Lord Jesus Christ, you would have known that such a person does in no wise represent Him; its really that plain and simple.

                          Reply#9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:30 PM EDT
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