Sam Harris - Believing the Unbelievable: The Clash Between Faith and Reason in the Modern World * Video*

Excellent!

... and this fascinating exchange confirmed what I suspected: Harris is a far better speaker than thinker!

Harris came to the debate far less prepared than Craig. Where Harris never effectively shook off Craig's quotes from Harris's work, Craig easily avoided Harris's attempts to cast Craig as a fundamentalist Bible-thumper.

Craig took on Harris's arguments -- clearly Craig had read Harris's work -- and dismantled them. Harris ignored Craig -- probably had not read Craig's work. Harris certainly never gave a single quote from Craig! Harris pulled an imaginary Bible-thumper out of thin air, and dismantled that Bible-thumper... but never really engaged Craig. So... on a purely "points" basis, Craig demolished Harris.

... which is a pity... Harris could have done much better if he had been as well prepared as Craig.

Late in the "questions" session, Craig volunteered the information that he considers Christianity to be "truer" than Islam. Surely that fact exists in Craig's written work. Surely Harris could have come to this debate with quotes that would tie Craig to the Bible, and thus force Craig to "defend" Biblical strictures. Instead, Harris allowed Craig to distance himself from any specific religious/ethical law. Lousy "debate technique"!

Harris speaks well. But at one point he was so much adrift intellectually that he actually trotted out the identical argument --identical words -- that he gives in the seeded video. It was totally irrelevant... and that irrelevance showed, blatantly.

In any case... fascinating video! Thanks!

Bob I will agree with you on that one. But the problem is you just can't beat Jesus. Unless you lie to yourself

Personally, I am very comfortable with Jesus. Then again, if I had been born elsewhere, there are several other religions that seem just as attractive... and I think that Jesus would be very understanding.

Jesus is in the Koran .. Jesus tells us in Romans 1:18-20 that you are without excuse. Everyone knows Jesus

"Everyone"??

Tell that to some of the tribes in South America - I guarantee they've never heard of Jesus. And face it ndeep, if you were raised as a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu ... you'd believe what you had been brainwashed with, and wouldn't believe in Jesus as the savior either. You just refuse to admit it.

Jesus is in the koran. Jesus says EVERYONE is without EXCUSE.. they may not call him Jesus but they know him.

Then Jesus is a tyrant. Because those tribes in South America who have had no exposure to missionaries or contact with the outside world (thank goodness, or they'd be dead now of disease) DO have an excuse.

In the Koran and the Torah, Jesus is a prophet or messenger, but not the savior (please do educate yourself on what Messiah meant to Mohammed - from an Islamic site). Again, if you had been raised in a Muslim or Jewish or Hindu household, you would not believe Jesus was the savior.

Kat .. but they know his name. Also let me point something out to you. Muslims can't stand a liar, but they put Jesus in their book as a great prophet. Jesus claimed to be GOD. If he claimed to be GOD then who can a Muslim even worship him as a great prophet??

Maybe this will help you out ..

Romans 1: ¹⁸ For ^(AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who ^(AK)suppress the truth ^[l]in unrighteousness, ¹⁹ because ^(AL)that which is known about God is evident ^[m]within them; for God made it evident to them. ²⁰ For ^(AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, ^(AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Quoting the bible doesn't mean a thing when you're talking about what Jews and Muslims consider Jesus to be. Try quoting Jewish and Muslim authorities. I've looked them up and they consider him just another prophet, not a savior.

Romans 1: ¹⁸ For ^(AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who ^(AK)suppress the truth ^[l]in unrighteousness, ¹⁹ because ^(AL)that which is known about God is evident ^[m]within them; for God made it evident to them. ²⁰ For ^(AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, ^(AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

OK - this is absolutely preposterous drivel.

For the wrath of God to be revealed, evident etc... by the world around us etc.....I would have to look up and around at the "stuff" in the universe and attribute its presence to GOD...I don't!!!

Therefore "that which is known about GOD" is not "known" at all. It is believed by a certain percentage of the world's population.

I have heard the name "Jesus" and I have heard the name" God"...but being as I don't believe that they even exist, that is a far cry from "knowing" them.

So your claim that everyone "knows" Jesus is a bit of a stretch.

Quite a few people have heard the word used in conversation...even fewer recognize it as a name...even fewer think that person exists...even fewer....you get my drift.

Hey...I have heard of George Clooney...does that mean I know him? I wish!

But you do know of him, So you are without excuse. He says if you seek you shall find.

He says he created the heavens. maybe you should look again.

the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who ^(AK)suppress the truth ^[l]in unrighteousness

Do you suppress the truth ???

Thanks for the Sam Harris "Mea NOT Culpa" response - I am so totally in love with him now.

I felt that the words "substantive challenges" is the core of his debating ability. The "high school" level of debate is probably all that the average listener (one of which I consider myself) can really assimilate in one or two hearings of a debate.

However, it is the background context, the unsaid argument and the thinking behind the statements that really allows one to analyze one's own reaction to the debaters and their take on the subject(s) at hand.

Thank you very much for all your efforts, King Dave - much appreciated by the chattering classes!

heh. Once again ndeep ignores my whole argument, which proves him wrong. Oh well. I should expect it by now. Logical thinking is a foreign concept to some people, as is true debate.

katrix .. I know what they consider him and Jesus tells you why they are both like that. If you would read the bible you would get the rest of the story.

Your wrong. He is introducing himself to you now. Jesus is speaking to you. Listen to your heart. Open up and love. Give him a chance.

He died for you. He loves you and willing to forgive everything and anything if you will just humble yourself to him.

Yes, Jane, ignore your brain, ignore the fact that Jesus's blood "sacrifice" was really unto himself, a blood sacrifice to a bloodthirsty god who is responsible for more torture, more death, more genocide than any other creature ever envisioned by man. Ignore that pesky little brain of yours that sees that the bible is just a book written by men who sought to control other men. Ignore the history that shows that the bible has been used over and over and over to torture, subjigate, villify and exclude large swaths of the world.

That pesky brain of yours, supposedly given by that bloodthirsty god, is going to lead to nothing but trouble, you know.

Thanks for the advice, Chickenmann, but I think that I will pass.

I think that I will keep listening to that common sense part of my brain which is telling me that ndeepnow just wants me to join his cult.

I gave Jesus a chance this morning - and he blew it - it rained all the way to the motorcycle shop - despite my most fervent and 'umble prayers!!!

Pshaww!

Chickenman, I don't understand what you are saying....do you believe in this God or not?

Wow, I guess that sarcasm really doesn't translate well over the interwebs...

Jane, I honestly want you to use your brain, and I truly believe that people who do tend to find out that the bible is bunk.

Sorry for the misunderstanding :(

I picked up your sarcasm, but you didn't answer my question.

anon, I was directing the clarification more at Jane, but I'm glad you picked up on my sarcasm. No, I don't believe there is such a thing as a god, certainly not by the current definitions of what is out there. I don't believe in Jesus, I don't believe in Yaweh, I don't believe in Krishna, or Vishnu, or Shiva, or Kali, or Buddha, or any sort of afterlife.

What I do believe is that since the dawn of civilization, religion has been used as a tool to subjigate, control, manipulate and destroy people.

Maybe it's time to let it go?

The part that confused me is how you can place the responsibility for all those things you mentioned (torture, etc) on a being that you don't believe exists. This would not make sense. Non-existent beings cannot be responsible for anything. However, after re-re-reading your statement, I think you mean

...a blood sacrifice to a bloodthirsty god, a belief that results in more torture, more death, more genocide...etc....by man

since it is the man that is committing these acts and not God. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is this what you mean?

Dear Chickenman

Your post was hilarious and I did catch the sarc. and replied in kind.

Oh,F.F's Sake - anon - he doesn't believe in God - that was obvious from his post!!!! Anway it's not this "God thing" that is the problem...it's all his little followers, zealots, believers etc. that are the real ball-busters of humanity!

Yes, Jane, ignore your brain

THAT'S RIGHT .. LISTEN TO YOUR HEART .. JESUS IS A MATTER OF THE HEART

anon, that's exactly what I mean. But what I also am trying to do is show that the bible has an amazing amount of torture, bloodshed, murder, rape and slavery, all at the hands of either "god's" people, or done by (according to the stories) god himself.

If we are to determine what is moral, what is just and what is right, I can think of a lot of better ways to determine that.

Morality doesn't come from the bible. Morality doesn't come from the church. Morality doesn't come from god. Morality comes from us. The sooner we realize that, realize that we are the progenators of our own happiness, of our own morality, the sooner we can truly start dealing ethically and morally with one another.

And as to ndeep's oh so valuable contribution- the human mind is what sets us apart from other creatures. The human mind is what enables us to judge right from wrong. The human mind is the seat of our emotions, our logic and our morality. To ask another human being to abandon all of this to "listen to your heart" (sorry but I didn't want to shout) is to ask them to give up their humanity and turn into little more than a cow or a sheep.

or done by (according to the stories) god himself.

This is what, at first, I thought you meant, and the part that I was questioning. It is circular logic to say "God is responsible for many terrible crimes in the Old Testament. God, as the Christians believe in Him, would not commit such acts. Therefore God, as the Christians believe in Him, can not exist." But if God does not exist, He is not responsible for those crimes. Therefore, God can exist. The logic is simply illogical.

Now you add the caveat of "according to the stories" and this gives you an out, but before you did not, which is why I had to question whether you believed in God or not. Yet you still qualify your disbelief with the statement

certainly not by the current definitions of what is out there

so maybe you do believe in a god...I don't know. Not so obvious, is it Jane?

anon allow me to clarify.

I don't believe in god. Many people do. If you believe in god (such as the god ndeepnow believes in) I feel it's important to examine just what kind of god you believe in. The stories of the bible are the best evidence of what kind of god christians believe in. So, what does that god do? Commits genocide, infanticide, commands murder, overlooks incest... if you've been following along there's a wealth of info from the book about him.

Again, not saying he exists, but if you choose to claim he's the creator of morality, just how moral is this fictional character, anyway?

Well the jail is filled with morality

Y'know what else it's full of? Christians and Muslims.

Statistically, atheists are less likely to commit crimes than religious people.

Any other nonsense you wanna spout ndeep?

That's because they don't care about anything but themselves.

Atheists are less likely to commit crimes than religious people because they don't care about anyone but themselves? Huh?

Atheists do care about people other than ourselves. We just do it because it's right, not because some mythical being threatens us into it. I just raised $20k for charity last week, without any god threatening me into it. ndeep, what have you done for your fellow man in the past week?

No you worried about that jail cell and big bubba well I don't know you make like bubba.

Jesus will judge you on that right there. See you think you did something great and you did, but Jesus doesn't see it the way we do. He says without him you are a dirty rag. You did that good deed in your name or someone elses name. It's all Jesus money

Oh and I think he calls that boasting ..

I take it that means you've done nothing for your fellow man in the past week - except maybe drive several people away from your twisted version of religion, and make Jesus weep at what you spout off in his name. And no, I don't treat people right because I'm afraid of jail. You're the one who is only good because of threats. Most of us are more moral than that.

And that bubba comment was beneath even you, as full of hatred as you are. Although female prisoners aren't generally referred to as "bubba" last that I heard. Bertha, maybe?

So, Jesus is going to judge me badly for raising money for charity because it wasn't a religious event in his name. You have no clue about Jesus, despite your prideful thinking that only you can speak for him.

Jesus says that "without me, you are a dirty rag!"

Oh really? And we should like this jesus dude....why? he sounds like a bit of an ass-wipe to me!

Kat .. look at you. Why can't you just give a little glory to Jesus? You want it all?

So Jail time doesn't scare you? It scared me. So I try to up hold mans laws also, because i don't want Jail time and I respect our laws. I try to up hold Jesus law because I respect him and I have faith that I will spend the rest of my life with him in heaven.

Jane .. He died for all of your sins. He gave his life up willingly. All he asked in return was you to believe in him. So maybe you should rethink what you said, maybe even tell Jesus you are sorry.

You have a nice day and may the Lord Jesus Christ Bless You and Yours

ndeepnow- Jesus- if you choose to believe your fairy tales- was a blood sacrifice to his own voracious appetite for violence and bloodshed. Hardly a cause for us to worship him.

Chickenmann, being as much of Christianity was taken from earlier religions, it makes sense that sacrifice was part of it.

And ndeep, Jesus had nothing to do with my colleagues donating money to a good cause. I really don't think Jesus gives a @!$%# whether we donate to a charity in his name or not, as long as we're helping others. Again, you might need God to be moral, but most of us can be perfectly moral without threats.

Oh and ndeepnow, getting back to the point we were steered to by you; if atheists aren't in prison because of their caring only about themselves, then why are christians and muslims in prisons? Because they're loving their fellow men/women too much? Too much altruism? Too much good will towards their fellow man? Or because they had a little too much of that herb that god declared to be "good"?

The truth is that in prison many rapists, pedophiles and spouse beaters/abusers use church services to avoid having to go to psychiatric help or take psychiatric medications. And I have a real problem with that. Because ultimately if they do that they do not address the root problems behind what put them in jail.

Kat can you name those religions. Is anyone like the bible. ANYONE .. PLEASE GIVE TO ME..

Chick.. You claim them t be Christians and maybe they do also, but Jesus told me to test the spirit. Have you tested the prisoners?? So you can't really say they are Christians can you.

Thanks -- may the Lord Jesus Christ Bless You and Yours

ndeep- who are you to question another person's faith? By your own standards, by your own definitions you cannot. If another says they are christian, unless they start spouting false prophecies, you are obliged to believe them, aren't you? Accept them as brothers and sisters in Christ? Hmmmmm?

The fact that's been shown again and again is that the "christian" bible is a book which can be used to justify almost any position, almost any crime, almost any mistreatment of another. It's been used to justify homicide, genocide, rape, torture, slavery and a host of other plagues which have been visited on this planet. How often do we hear christians take credit for the good christians have done, while out of the other side of their mouths denying culpability for the evil done?

dear Chickenman et al - ndeepnow is only 'ndeep' because he is sitting in a puddle of circular logic. There is no arguing with someone like this as they have a little list of responses - a sort of Golden Child's Book of things to say when one's reason has failed. I believe that several of our GOP candidates are also working from this primer.

IMHO, the entire Christian religion is one giant clusterf logical fallacy and as such bears no scrutiny...ndeepnow and his ilk are not whole human beings - they have a void somewhere inside them - perhaps their mummies didn't love them, or they were bullied at school???

They have a need to have an external compass and source of comfort...without God and Jesus, they feel so horribly alone that they can't stand it. I think that many of them fear being forced to fall back on their own resources and be responsible for their own futures and those of their loved ones.

That is why we hear so much of this passivity...pre-ordained -God will decide - it's in his plan etc. It passes the buck for messing up or being incapable of reaching one's goals onto foprces outside one's control!!!

Me, if I screw up I own it...but...if I do well, I own that too. They are denied that feeling, so probably never have the opportunity to grow in self confidence or decision making abilities.

PS Remember - I don't need to go to college and prove my academic worth in a real way because the Rapture will take me away soon.....

I didn't think so .. No other book like it in the world. Thy Word Is True

ndeepnow- I'll gladly accept that the bible is true- if you prove it.

And no, proving the bible by using the bible doesn't count.

I'm telling you it's no other book like it in the world. I asking someone to give me a religion like it. It's none out there.

40 men, 66 books, over 1500 years --

It is our beginning to our end.

Written long after the events happened, which makes it impossible to believe, and much of it has been proven to not have happened as stated in the bible. The people who wrote it were ignorant of science and made things up to try to explain natural events they couldn't understand, and if they were alive today, they'd probably be laughing at your gullability while saying "oh, THAT'S what causes earthquakes. Now I get it."

Every other religion is equally as valid as yours, and equally provable. Christianity borrowed many of its tenents from older religions - the resurrection, the flood, a god impregnating a human, and so on. You're as much a pagan if you're a Christian as anything.

ndeep,

by your reasoning - if I start writing now about the Sparkly Unicorn of Noth and 41 men, 67 books later and 1500 years ...and 6 months!!!!! later, my book about the Unicorn of Noth will be THE Book and it will be our beginning and end - and the whole world should be Nothites!!!!!!!!!!!1

Well don't you think someone else has thought of that? matter of fact they have tried. It's called other religions and they just don't compare to Jesus and the bible.

This is one name under heaven which you must be saved .. Jesus Christ is his name

Sorry ndeep- I'm not drowning, I hold myself responsible for my own sin, and I hold nobody above me as lord. I am my own master- in short, I am a free man.

You hold Jesus as your lord? You are little more than a slave.

You hold the bible as the truth? You believe no more than a lie.

You make moral compromises to justify the bible's evil and blind yourself with the shutters of the bible. And then you yell to us "COME SEE! I FOUND THE TRUTH!" But the thing is, ndeepnow, we see you for what you are- a blind man wandering in a wilderness of ignorance.

To you, maybe they don't compare. To the adherents of those other religions, they are every bit as good as Christianity. It's arrogant to place yourself above everyone else like you do. Remember, you have a 67% chance of being wrong ... at the very least. Won't it be funny if you find out you are wrong? And even if your religion is the right one - Jesus is really not going to be happy about the way you twist his teachings into something warped and evil, so you're still probably going to be in trouble.

Katrix I think you're being generous in your statistics there. Remember, the catholics think all the protestants are going to hell, the southern baptists think the catholics are going to hell, the lutherans think the catholics and the baptists are going to hell, the amish think everybody but them is going to hell, the Muslims think all non-muslims are going to hell, and the wonderful folks at WBC think that everybody who's not them is going to hell.

The Buddhists don't think anybody's going anywhere, I think (not too sure on that one though), so I have no beef with them. The Wiccans think we have twelve chances at getting this life right, and after that *poof* no more us, but "right" isn't necessaraly their religion, so I have no beef with them either.

To be honest I only no the smallest bit about the Hindu faith, so I don't know how I feel on that one...

Yeah, I'd say we have a lot more chance of being wrong than 67%...

The only people that go to hell are the ones who don't accept Jesus pardon and he has one for everybody. All you have to do is step up and ask for it.

I hold myself responsible for my sin as well. To a point I repent it to Jesus. So I go one more step them you.

Kat I may be wrong but Jesus never is.

ndeepnow, you don't go a step further. You regress. By making Jesus responsible for the forgiveness of your sins, you abdicate that last part of your own responsibility for your actions. And again, prove there's a hell, prove that there's a god, prove that the bible is true, prove that Jesus is the only way to heaven, prove anything other than your ability to blather and dither like a presidential candidate, and I'll listen. But so far you are, to quote shakespeare, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

He tells you. HE TELLS YOU. NAME ANOTHER that is worthy. Not some unicorn spaghetti monster. Name One.

Isaiah 45:²⁰ “Gather together and come,
you fugitives from surrounding nations.
What fools they are who carry around their wooden idols
and pray to gods that cannot save!
²¹ Consult together, argue your case.
Get together and decide what to say.
Who made these things known so long ago?
What idol ever told you they would happen?
Was it not I, the Lord?
For there is no other God but me,
a righteous God and Savior.
There is none but me.
²² Let all the world look to me for salvation!
For I am God; there is no other.
²³ I have sworn by my own name;
I have spoken the truth,
and I will never go back on my word:
Every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will confess allegiance to me.^[d]”

^{Isaiah 46:8} “Do not forget this! Keep it in mind!
Remember this, you guilty ones.
⁹ Remember the things I have done in the past.
For I alone am God!
I am God, and there is none like me.
¹⁰ Only I can tell you the future
before it even happens.
Everything I plan will come to pass,
for I do whatever I wish.

Blah blah blah - what a load of nonsense. Just because someone wrote ...I am God...doesn't mean that there is a God - you can't keep using the Bible to prove itself - just plain not gonna work!

ndeepnow - you just keep using your tired old book to...well, I am not sure exactly what you are trying to do.

You absolutely missed my earlier point...you said that your bible was HE one because it was the longest and oldest - if we produce one that lasts longer, has more chapters and was written by more people...then by your logic it will supercede the Big Old Book of God as the premier religious work!

Jesus proves himself unworthy. He proves himself unworthy by claiming to be one and the same as the god of the old testament. He proves himself unworthy by saying he will continue his "father's" heinous reign.

And while we're at it, why the hell do we even need some "higher power" anyway?

Also, ndeep, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, QUOTING THE BIBLE DOESN'T PROVE THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's no other book it's no other GOD.. JESUS is his name and the ONLY name under heaven that you can be SAVED.

Tell that to the muslims

Tell that to the Jews

Tell that to the Hindus

Tell that to the Buddhists

Tell that to the Wiccans

Tell that to the ancestor worshipers

Your book holds no more power or allure than any of their books- except to you.

Its longevity is more greatly attributed to almost 2000 years of an oppressive, oligarchical, manipulative and controlling church which supressed dissent and advocated the active hunting, murder and torture of nonbelievers. A church, mind you, that you yourself have described as evil. Without that church, you just have another myth that may or may not have faded into the back pages of antiquity.

i'm SCREAMING it. i'm telling you an anyone else.. Jesus is the only name

ndeepnow- calm down man, don't want you to blow a gasket. You can scream all you want, but the fact is that I, along with all my cohorts here who are trying (in vain I suspect) to hammer some sense into you, recognize that what you are screaming is lies.

The volume of an argument does not equal the veracity of it.

No I'm asking for any other. you can't give it. so it is only one. His name is Jesus ..

Any other what? You are asking for "any other" what - name - argument?

So far you have just insisted that jesus is the only.....name under heaven? Saved? What a load of twaddle!

Did you know that your stupid version of Christianity was only one of about 5 that were battling it out in about 500AD - jesus is a fairy story!

It's been right there so you could read for yourself all the years of your life.. maybe you should read again. It's there.

I'm waiting??

You are on "ignore", so you can wait until your imaginary Judgment Day for all I care.

Just can't bring yourself to the truth. Jesus says he comes as the divider. See when you give the true word one must chose a side.

I see you have chosen yours, BUT I pray you change your mind, Jesus Loves You and died for you

Jesus died for his own lust for his own blood.

His followers have been just as bloodthirsty for the past 2,000 years.

what do you mean by bloodthirsty? why do you say that?

anon, read your old testament. Read about the god that existed then. That is the god to whom Jesus, according to the bible, made himself a blood sacrifice to.

I have, and I understand that, but why do you accuse even followers today of being bloodthirsty?

Ask WBC.

Ask the people who have killed abortion doctors.

Ask the Norwegian shooter.

I'd tell you to ask Lawrence Russel Brewer, but he's dead now, as are the Branch Davidians.

Ask any of the cultishly devoted fundamentalist Christians who pepper the country and seek to turn our nation into a theocracy. While you're at it, ask them their opinion on homosexuals, or transsexuals.

Ask any of these people why I think followers today are bloodthirsty. And listen, really listen, to the very hymns they sing as they worship their blood god.

"We are bathed in the blood of the Lamb", sound familiar?

You can argue "Oh those are the extremists", but in truth, most of them are more closely following the scripture as written than most of the people who abhor them.

LOL .. WE diffently know the Norwegian shooter wasn't Christian. That has been proved. We don't know if the ones who blow up abortion clinics are Christians. Now they may use the faith to hide behind, but we don't know.

If It doesn't look like a Christian, Act like a Christian, It may not be a Christain.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2011/07/christian_terrorism.html

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-christian-fundamentalist-held.html

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/07/norway-christian-killings-muslim-/1

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/reminders-that-norwegian-_n_910097.html

Please please please don't try and argue that Anders wasn't a christian.

You still fail to look at all the other people I mentioned. Not a suprise, I suppose ndeep- you are extremely adept at sweeping that which shows christianity's true face- an ugly, bloody face that has only survived by its own bloody means.

If it self-identifies as a Christian, then it's a Christian!

ndeep decides who is or is not Christian. ndeep speaks for Jesus. ndeep has a god-complex...

Jesus tells you to test the spirit. Did you test the Spirit????

I'm sorry, but can you even prove there is a "spirit"?

Didn't the bible say something about being judged by one's deeds? Well Anders' actions were by his own words meant to awaken christian Europe to the muslim threat and spread the word of god.

Your god, ndeep.

Your brutal, genocidal, bloodthirsty, homophobic, racist, sexist god.

Are you (and Harris) suggesting that science dictates morals, or do morals exist outside of science? Can morals pre-exist science? Isn't this merely replacing religion as the motivation behind moral behavior with science? You don't have to answer, but your response raised more questions than it answered.

But I was really asking what you make of this method of argument, not the actual argument. Do you think this is a fair method to use for arguing against religion?

I might argue that science may explain morals and morality, not dictate them...

I watched Hitchens vs. Craig earlier in the week and Hitchens did not impress me. He is as ignorant of Catholic teachings as Harris (this is evident in any NYT article he writes in which he mentions the Church). At any rate, I will watch Hitchens & D'Souza when I can.

Why don't we ask King Dave, if you think there is ambiguity. I was responding to his comment

That was before science discovered...

and didn't think there was any conflict in what we mean by 'science.' Do you? If there is ambiguity, maybe it should be defined, but not every term need be defined.

We're questioning the conflict between how you define science and how I define it, not the conflict between science and religion. I don't know that there is any conflict there.