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King Dave "An atheist is something I am, not something I do" ~ Christopher Hitchens
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Jihad: Holy War that seems destined to last as long as civilization is willing to defend against it. ~ Christopher Hitchens

Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:54 PM EDT
religion, terrorism, islam, christopher-hitchens, slate, mass-effect
By King Dave

In Defense of Endless War

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As 9/11 showed, civilization has enemies with which peace is neither possible nor desirable.

By Christopher Hitchens ~ Posted Monday, Sept. 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM ET Slate.com

 

A continuous and repetitive thread in the commentary on the decade since 9/11—one might almost call it an endless and open-ended theme—was the plaintive observation that the struggle against al-Qaida and its surrogates is somehow a "war without end." (This is variously rendered as "perpetual war" or "endless war," just as anti-war articles about the commitment to Iraq used to relentlessly stress the idea that there was "no end in sight.")

I find it rather hard to see the force of this objection, or indeed this description. Was there ever a time when we involved ourselves in combat, or found ourselves involved, with any certain advance knowledge about the timeline and duration of hostilities? Are there two kinds of war, one of them term-limited? A bit like that other tempting but misleading separation of categories—between "wars of choice" and "wars of necessity"—this proves upon closer scrutiny to be a distinction without much difference.

In order even to aspire to such a nebulous timeline, there would first have to be consensus on when the war actually started. For example, I would say that hostilities between the United States and Saddam Hussein began in the early 1990s, if only at a relatively low level, after he had violated all the conditions of the cease-fire that had allowed him to retain power in 1991, and after he had begun regularly firing upon the planes that patrolled and enforced the cease-fire and the "no-fly" zones. For more than a decade, the only response to this was more air patrols and a reliance on a crumbling regime of sanctions. That really was a case of "no end in sight." But something tells me that this is not the sort of example that my opponents have in mind.

Then again, one might ask how long we have been at war with al-Qaida or its equivalents. Since the attack on the World Trade Center in 1993? Since the destruction of the U.S. embassies in Africa? Since the near-sinking of the USS Colein Aden harbor in 2000? Even to invite these questions is to arouse the unnerving suspicion that there was quite a long period during which al-Qaidawas at war with us, but we did not understand that we were at war with it. It was precisely that queasy feeling that was beginning to creep over some of us a while before the events of a decade ago dispelled most doubts. And it would have been just as true to say "no end in sight" on Sept. 12, 2001, as it would be to say it today—more true, if anything. So once again, those who want to set the clock must be crystal clear about when they think the confrontation started running.

Attitudes toward length are often a good clue to attitudes toward outcome. During the Bosnian conflict, those of us who favored using force to lift the siege of Sarajevo were accused of advocating a tactic that would "lengthen" the war. Even in the trivial sense of being true by definition (anything that denied Gen. Ratko Mladica cheap, easy, and swift victory over civilians was necessarily war-prolonging to some extent), this wasn't true in any serious way. The relatively brief bombardment of Serbian artillery positions had the effect of exposing the hollowness of Mladic's military strength: Within an amazingly short time, Slobodan Milosevic himself was at Dayton asking for terms. One might phrase it like this: Intervention slightly lengthened hostilities in the short term, but drastically shortened them in the long term. (Milosevic later misinterpreted the Dayton agreementsas lenience and tried to repeat his Bosnian tactics in Kosovo. But even if this could be construed as war-prolonging, it also led to the eventual defeat of his army and overthrow of his regime, and thus to a conclusive finish.)

Arguments about duration are often of great historical significance, going far beyond the battles of mere hindsight. For instance, the conventional wisdom among historians holds that United States military intervention in Europe in 1917 had the salutary effect of persuading the German high command that, with another fresh and well-equipped force deployed against it, it could not hope to prevail against the British and French alliance. But another explanation of the same events shows the war on the Western Front actually being prolonged. Before President Woodrow Wilson abandoned neutrality and committed American forces in strength, the Germans had been fighting with exceptional success. Their prowess had led to calls, especially in London, for a negotiated peace. But the arrival of a new ally dissipated all such talk and compelled the Germans to fight until the bitter end. Not only that, but when peace terms were finally discussed, the French were allowed and enabled to press their most vindictive economic and territorial claims against Germany. That the Versailles Treaty led to the rise of Nazism and thus to the "Second" World War, or rather Part 2 of the first one, is a conclusion that few historians now dispute. So short-war advocates should know to beware of what they ask for.

A final objection to the dogma of brief engagements is more commonsensical. On the whole, perhaps it is best not to tell your opponent in advance of the date when you plan to withdraw your forces. Many American generals, we understand, were critical of the president's original decision to announce a deadline for the endgame in Afghanistan. Certainly, there seem to be upsetting signs of Afghan national army units, in particular, basing their calculations on who can be counted on to be still present as the months go by. Difficult to blame people for consulting their own self-interest in this blunt way.

Human history seems to register many more years of conflict than of tranquillity. In one sense, then, it is fatuous to whine that war is endless. We do have certain permanent enemies—the totalitarian state; the nihilist/terrorist cell—with which "peace" is neither possible nor desirable. Acknowledging this, and preparing for it, might give us some advantages in a war that seems destined to last as long as civilization is willing to defend itself.

Original article: http://www.slate.com/id/2304120/

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  • Public Discussion (12)
King Dave

My article from August 9th. Is Hitch stealing my lines?

Poll: Religions of the World: Is co-existence possible? Is it desirable?

I wish, but now we know how he would vote.

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:59 PM EDT
AdipicAcid

He would vote that they all be abandoned.

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:43 AM EDT
Reply
Grisham

Human history seems to register many more years of conflict than of tranquillity.

So very true and sad at the same time.

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:07 PM EDT
AdipicAcid

Just remember that Hitch feels pretty much the same about all religions. As soon as Christians attempt to impose their theology via the gun, he will write a similar article about how they are the enemies of civiization as well. He thinks that religion is a curious myth we can no longer afford, period.

I'm not saying he's wrong, or that that opinion means that this essay is in error. I am trying to get ahead of the Christian Taliban before they show up, however.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:39 AM EDT
JohnRussell

Christianity was 'reformed' away from a need to conquer the world hundreds of years ago, Islam never has been. That is the difference. The ignorance people display is a trip.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:12 AM EDT
Future History

Christianity was 'reformed' away from a need to conquer the world hundreds of years ago

By force, perhaps ... but let's not pretend that the Dominionists don't exist.

  • 3 votes
#3.2 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:23 AM EDT
AdipicAcid

Christianity was 'reformed' away from a need to conquer the world hundreds of years ago

Bull. I can point to any number of influential Christians who believe otherwise, starting with the current Governor of Texas, who is idolized by the Christian community in this nation. The Christians preaching peace are as ignored by their co-religionists as those inside Islam are.

One merely need look to the overwhelming number of religious leaders who have asked Georgia to stay Troy Davis' execution, and how the "good Christians" ignore them to see that Christianity as a whole carries the same vindictive strain that contaminates all of the Mosaic religions.

  • 3 votes
#3.3 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:31 AM EDT
AdipicAcid

And since we are talking about Mr. Hitchens' opinions, let's go straight to the source here:

“Organised religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children.”

God is Not Great

“Everything about Christianity is contained in the pathetic image of 'the flock.”

...

"I think I have a very good idea why it is that anti-Semitism is so tenacious and so protean and so enduring. Christianity and Islam, theistic though they may claim to be, are both based on the fetishizing of human primates: Jesus in one case and Mohammed in the other. Neither of these figures can be called exactly historical but both have one thing in common even in their quasi-mythical dimension. Both of them were first encountered by the Jews. And the Jews, ravenous as they were for any sign of the long-sought Messiah, were not taken in by either of these two pretenders, or not in large numbers or not for long."

Hitch-22

  • 1 vote
#3.4 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:47 AM EDT
King Dave

Thanks for reading, vote and your thoughts.

Christianity was 'reformed' away from a need to conquer the world hundreds of years ago...

Another Christian fail.

Sadly, no one told that to Barhing Breivik, or Mexico's Caballeros Templarios (Knights Templar)unlike their medieval idols, these deeply religious Christian thugs have left scores of mutilated corpses strewn about Michoacán since their emergence as a group in March. 40,000 gangland murders since 2007 by drug-dealing Christian zealots. The Knights are a breakaway group from the "narco-Evangelical" cartel known as La Familia Michoacana, which burst onto the scene in Michoacán five years ago by throwing five severed heads onto a discotheque dance floor. La Familia's criminal and spiritual leader, Nazario Moreno, a.k.a. el Más Loco (the Craziest One), even wrote his own bible of religious ramblings, which was compulsory reading for his troops.


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2079430,00.html#ixzz1YdJGCZhp

  • 3 votes
#3.5 - Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:34 PM EDT
Future History

from your link:

they found that religious discipline was a useful tool to keep criminal troops in line.

That was the original purpose of religion. It is clearly still the purpose of radical Islam.

    #3.6 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:19 AM EDT
    AdipicAcid

    And Christianity, and Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., etc., etc.

    • 2 votes
    #3.7 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:34 AM EDT
    Future History

    I think that it is safe to say that the vast majority of Christians today are actually pretty good people - certainly not crimminals or murderers. I'm basing this on my own experience with being raised Protestant and attending a Jesuit high school, even though I have been an atheist for as long as I can remember. Of course there are many who exhibit human behavior that clearly violate the golden rule, but it doesn't make them crimminals.

    Let's be realistic, church today is a social event more than a genuine worship center. In Catholic churches I am familiar with, people don't even dress up anymore for services. In Protestant churches I am familiar with, coffee hour is the main event, besides special events that have nothing to do with worship. At the Presbyterian church I grew up with, two ministers had divorced their wives because they were having affairs with members of the congregation. At this same church, one of the ministers caused a fuss by focussing his energy on all of the congregation equally, rather than those who contributed the most to the collection plate. He was subsequently banished by Presytery from the white, middle class church to a failing church that was litterally in the ghetto. My parents followed him to that church, as did several other couples who found his treatment to be deplorable. However, most of those white couples lost their nerve and went slinking back to the white church. My parents stayed, and formed numerous friendships with the members of this struggling church. The white minister was popular, until he divulged that he was cheating on his wife and divorced her for another woman. Today, 20 years later, my parents are the only white members, but they still frequently talk about relationships and situations that happen with the congregation, as if it were a continuous soap opera. Church is a just a convenient gathering place to socialize and gossip.

    • 2 votes
    #3.8 - Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
    Reply
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