Sam Harris ~ Religion: An Eruption of Egregious Medieval Stupidity / Opening remarks from: 'Religion, Politics and the End of the World' (Video)

I answer about everything he had in his video.

It just sounds good when People don't know the bible and the true word of Jesus.

Ndepnow, I'd argue that athiests tend to know the bible better than most self proclaimed "christians". The thing is if you read the bible you are faced with one of three choices:

1) Ignore the moral compromises, the bloody murder and slaughter of innocents, rape, incest and savagery that the bible advocates/gives a pass to, and just cherry pick the nice parts

2)Accept that your god is a selfish, petty, narcisistic, mass murdering deity and worship him as such, or

3) Stop listening to the preachers and ask yourself if you can worship the god of the bible in good conscience. Because the atrocities he commits and looks on in in favor are truely horrific.

There is a fourth option though- choose to forget everything you read and just believe what a gel-haird televangelist told you.

Me, I read the bible. Cover to cover. And the fact is I chose option one for a loooooong time. But eventually I awoke and discovered that I couldn't ignore the horror that pervades the book in the name of the few beautiful passages that are legitimately there.

Jesus was speaking to the Israelites, The Israelites are his chosen people. Jesus protected them. War happens you can see that today " Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, -- After all the men were killed in war. Jesus told the Israelites to take care of the women and children.

Jesus is a loving GOD.

There is a lot of stupid out there. Some are nee deep in it.

Many of his atrocities had nothing to do with war, as you repeatedly ignore when it is pointed out to you by the very scripture that you troll articles with. And many of the ones relating to wars relate to wars that God apparently told them to start. Chosen people, my ass. They made up stories to justify their actions, that's all.

People need to apply their morals to ALL people, not just their own cultures, and your god's atrocities are sickening. It's why I no longer consider myself religious - I can't worship anything that evil and twisted.

For every question there are perhaps 1,000 answers, with only one of them being the true answer. Answering every comment with biblical scripture verses (looking at you ndeep) is like having a book of the 999 false answers and laboring over finding the answer that is least incorrect.

Jesus died for all people. Every Nation, kindred, and Tongue. Jesus was a Jew. The Jews are his chosen people. That's no secrete.

Sometimes these people were PURE EVIL. Pure evil is on earth now, but we are living under grace. If it wasn't for that Jesus probably would tell us to do the same today, but we are saved by grace through faith.

Jesus will judge this time.

What kind of a dick has "chosen people"?

I would say just the opposite. It seems like everyone would say " REALLY " Jesus said all of that. Jesus had all ready answered all of my life question. I never knew. Jesus is GOD

BUT -- NOOOOOOOOO

All those here that tell me they know the bible. They don't know the things of the bible I show them. They been to busy trying to prove Jesus wrong.

The funny thing is I believe from my studies and the holy spirit. Ibelieve the bible is set up to give ammunition to anyone looking to prove it wrong, but to us who come to believe He opens our eyes to HIM

Jesus says to all non-believers -- I will send down strong delusion on you so that you will believe a lie.

^{1 Corinthians 1:27} but ^(BF)God has chosen the foolish things of ^(BG)the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of ^(BH)the world to shame the things which are strong,

Jesus says to all non-believers -- I will send down strong delusion on you so that you will believe a lie.

Again, what kind of dick does that?

Your interpretation of the bible makes no sense, ndeep. And the other devout Christians on Newsvine have repeatedly told you so, not just the agnostics and atheists. You completely ignore all the parts of the bible we show you that prove how evil God is. Your excuses are pathetic - "sometimes these people were PURE EVIL." Oh yeah, I'm sure all the infants God murdered were evil - and all the women he encouraged his "chosen people" to rape were pure evil - what a pile of crap that is. He is a sadistic, murdering tyrant.

Future History - you nailed it. Actually, that whole concept is good ammunition for saying that the OT was made up by the people to try to justify their actions. Oh, it's OK if we killed a bunch of people, we'll pretend a god told us to do it. The whole idea of a "chosen people" is completely human and not at all godlike. And most cultures think they're special, we always have and probably always will.

ndeep ignores that stuff, though, because he doesn't want to stop worshipping evil.

Future History -- This is why -- Man just keeps turning away, following other gods, doing their own thing and Jesus finally says enough is enough.

Romans 1:²¹ For even though they knew God, they did not ^[n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became ^(AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. ^{22 (AP)}Professing to be wise, they became fools, ²³ and ^(AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and ^[o]crawling creatures.

KaT - Jesus is not Evil .. Man is .. Jesus is just and righteous at all times. See this is the difference. I understand that Jesus died for me because he loved me.

So when I read and come across certain things that sound bad at first. i remember that Jesus loved me enough to die for me. It must be more to this. So I study it. now I may not be able to express it in the best way, but that was out of Love for his people.

Remember this is a 1000 years after the great flood, After the Tower of Babel. after the famine, bondage. If you thought the wild wild west was bad. It was nothing. Man was and still is raw. We just think we are smart now.

Again you are trying to back seat drive. This wasn't yesterday. This was 3500 years ago. When men were men.

Think about the Romans during Jesus time. The Romans were the power house ' Brute Force " Skilled, Harden Warriors "

I guess the difference is that you think something that rapes, enslaves and murders countless people is righteous. I call it evil. You say it sounds bad AT FIRST??? I say it sounds bad ALWAYS.

You can't give your god credit for everything and then just excuse this by saying "men were men." Your god specifically did these things. You worship evil. Name one single thing satan did that was anywhere near as atrocious as your god did - can't find anything, can you? All satan did was bruise your god's massive ego which, as we know, pisses god off and makes him commit mass murders and worse.

And we have proven there was no great flood. The Tower of Babel story is a myth; languages evolved as people migrated around the world out of Africa over hundreds of thousands of years.

Who had who captive ???? Did Jesus or the Israelites??

Satan said I will place myself above the most high --

That's EGO when you believe you can be the one who created you and ALL ..

Satan never killed, raped or enslaved anyone. If you truly think bruising someone's ego is worse than that, you have problems.

There is no evidence that the Jews were held captive, btw. And if they were, so what? Your god condones slavery, after all.

Those Roman "powerhouses" averaged about 5'5". By today's standards they would be looked at as just this side of midgety. And it still doesn't change that the average life span during Jesus's time was around 40.

Satan is killing, Raping, Murderingeveryone RIGHT NOW. Satan is our problem. You do not wrestle flesh and blood but spirits.

^{Ephesians 6:12} For our ^(W)struggle is not against ^[e](X)flesh and blood, but ^(Y)against the rulers, against the powers, against the ^(Z)world forces of this ^(AA)darkness, against the ^(AB)spiritual forces of wickedness in ^(AC)the heavenly places.

That's because the Roman midgets killed everything .. LOL .

Nothing in the bible says anything about satan killing anyone. It says plenty about god killing, raping and enslaving though. But you go right on worshipping evil. I will stick with morality.

Jesus told you the spirit of anti-christ is in the world now. The anti-chrsit is going to kill billions during the 7 year tribulation.

See Jesus was trying to witness to every nation that he was GOD. That all these others gods were nothing. He was trying to witness to them the same way Jesus witness to all of us. They actually had it better than use. Those people got a clear sign that Jesus was in Charge. Today we have forgot that. That's why the devil will be able to destroy so many.

Maybe we've forgotten that because those things that he predicted (some say within his generation) never came to pass, and we realized just how silly it was to believe a bunch of end of days prophecy.

Well, most of us.

I guess there's still plenty of people out there trying to scan the front pages for "signs" of the apocalypse.

Me, I'm too busy living and loving the only life I have.

I have no clue what you are talking about ??

Y'know Jesus? The big J? The absolute best dude to have at parties? The guy who made a bunch of prophesies that still haven't come true?

Ring a bell?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Beuller?

Beuller?

It's pretty widely accepted that he predicted those things to happen within that generation. But you know how prophecy cults are - they always have some excuse.

Can you give me scripture .. PLEASE

Waiting

Try 1 John 2.18. And also do a little research, for crying out loud. Early Christians believed that these prophecies would occur within their lifetime. And as always happens, they didn't come true.

Well if you will study that a little he goes on to tell you that anti-christ are already here .. then he says they went out from us because they were not of us.

He is talking about Teachers of the word. That start teaching false hoods and saying things like I use to be in a church but I left it because I don't believe.

We are living in that hour and have been since Jesus.

Jesus came at just the right time to save you.

Nah, he didn't. I'm too moral to ever worship a sadistic, egotistical murderer. There is NO time when I will think murder, rape and enslavement deserve my worship.

People killed people long before Jesus came on the scene, and probably always will. It's just that some of them wrote a book called the bible and made up stuff about how god told them to do it, so they wouldn't have to face up to the fact that they are killers and rapists. And then they got people like you to fall for it and worship that evil being.

There is no falsehood at all in saying I used to be in a church but I left it when I realized what a murderous bastard the god of the bible is. You want to worship evil, go right ahead. I will go for the path of goodness.

1 John 2:^{19 (AY)}They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, ^(AZ)so that ^[d]it would be shown that they all are not of us.

That babble means nothing. Since you have no arguments, you quote tripe.

Keep worshipping evil. You'll find out in the end where that leads you, and you won't like it.

Don't hate Jesus for calling people out that turn from the faith

That's Him .. Pharaoh cause the the 10 plagues. He could have let the Israelites go.

Did they completely wipe off the Canaanites? I get a little confused on that.

Isaiah 13:15-16 Judgement on the day of the Lord. Jesus came the first time as the Lamb. To take away the sin of the world. The second coming he is the Lion of Judah. He will be coming in his full might and glory. He will destroy the wicked with the brightness of his coming.

²⁷ But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Exodus 10:27)

God hardened Pharoh's heart. Not pharoh. God. God as good as turned Pharoh into an automaton (so much for free will) and used him as an excuse for murdering the firstborn of Egypt.

I'd say it's shocking but really it's not. This is a god who, rather than including a proscription against, say, slavery or diddling children, chose to have the first four commandments devoted to his ego.

Well, its ego is massive. Second only to its cruelty. Why would anyone worship evil?

And that's a good point - the bible says clearly that God screwed with the Pharoh - he just loves @!$%#ing with people and making them sin, so he can then torture and kill them.

NOW LISTEN UP -- VERY IMPORTANT --

Jesus harden Pharaoh's heart after every plague. First Off Pharaoh Heart was already a little harden. Pharaoh did not believe in GOD. He had his own belief. Then after every plague it got worse. To the point he died by the parted sea.

The Pharaoh did not want to believe and after every miracle it just made Pharaoh more determine to show his strength. To show he was BOSS.

Moses walked in and told the Pharaoh what was going to be done. That was unheard of.

Thank About IT. Not that Jesus harden his heart before

So what you're saying is that just because at first Pharoh didn't believe, it was okay for GOD/JESUS to slaughter every single first-born child in Egypt? Even by your own admission, God started to take away Pharoh's free will from the moment of the first plague. In other words, even if Pharoh HAD wanted to say, "okay I give up get these stupid jews off my land!" he couldn't- because GOD/JESUS had made it impossible.

God wanted to slaughter those children from the very beginning.

Is that the god of love you follow?

No .. Pharaoh refused to believe. It was 10 plagues in all. The Children was the last.

Jesus didn't -- Pharaoh thought he was in charge.

Jesus is in Charge -- The GREAT -- I AM -- King of Kings, Lord of Lords --

Ah, the old "you hurt my ego so I will kill a bunch of innocent people" thing again. God is really good at that, isn't he.

NO .. they wouldn't let his people go. Damn do you want to hate so bad that you can't remember the story as it is written???

That great I AM (somehow I still have the voice of Popeye the sailor man in my head when I hear that) made it impossible for Pharoh to change his mind.

I repeat: Pharoh COULD NOT CHANGE HIS MIND.

To quote a writer I happen to like, "sin without volition is a slap in the face of morality"

Pharaoh could .. just like you .. Pharaoh was heady - high minded -- Refused to bow down.

I'll quote again:

²⁷ But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Exodus 10:27)

Once again, GOD made it impossible for pharoh to do anything- except what GOD wanted him to do. And what HE wanted him to do was sit back and watch as GOD slaughtered every innocent first born child of Egypt.

NO .. that is what you want to believe. Jesus doesn't harden your heart, but he says if you keep going away from me that he will send you strong delusion. He will give you over to your lust.

GOD hardened Pharoh's heart. that's the quote. I'm not delusional, that is what it says, right? When you harden a heart you make it impossible to show mercy or kindness or even wisdom. Now, if Pharoh had hardened his own heart, without the aid of GOD, and said to Moses "hey screw you buddy you and your people are slaves" then the murder of those innocents would have fallen on Pharoh's head.

But that just ain't the case, is it? Pharoh may have responded with some initial doubt, but ultimately the thing that keeps him from releasing the Israelites is not his pride, but GOD's.

Was Pharaoh a believer in the Hebrew GOD " Jesus " ?? NO so I guess then if you would liek to look at it that way. just like ALL who will not accept him " Jesus " he will do the same to them. He said will send down strong delusion. Allow you to have your wants your lust.

So your god justifies killing the firstborn of an entire nation based on the fact that Pharoh didn't believe in him? Now THAT'S petty.

Without JESUS you wouldn't be here. I would say maybe you are over stepping your bounds ... just a little

ndeep's god epitomizes the very worst of human emotions, especially ego. When a human destroys a child it created, we throw that person in jail. But ndeep worships that kind of thing. Scary and sad.

Actually it's my biological parents (who were "sinning" in the eyes of Jesus) who are responsible for me being here, not Jesus. There is no cabbage patch the Jesus Fairy leaves little children for parents to find. To quote Wednesday Addams:

My parents had sex.

And just so you know, an argument of morality cannot be won by "my god's gonna bitch slap you if you don't believe". Show me one statement I made that is inconsistent with reality, one statement I made about the bible that didn't actually come from the bible or legitimate sources, and I'll admit that on that point I erred. But your saying I shouldn't/can't judge god's morality, based on what he has done?

Completely illegitimate.

You expect reason, from a crackpot?

Did Jesus kill all the first born?? Did he do all the other plagues?? If so then I would say he was GOD and he can do what he wants.

IF you don't believe then don't worry about it. You must know it's true and you know whats coming. The lake of fire.

Open your heart, ask Jesus in, Tell him you want him to be your lord and savior, repent your sins, tell him to make you what he wants you to be.

So your argument is "this guy who i've never met, never seen any actual proof of, who, in his own stories, condones, even encourages murder of children, rape, genocide, who commits these atrocities himself, well he's so POWERFUL! I guess I better follow his moral and ethical edicts! After all, who am I? I couldn't possibly have any moral compass without him!"?

And people wonder where Hitler got his ideas...

Has Jesus ever asked you to murder, rape anyone ??????

And since you brought up the issue of Hell, can we please talk about the hideous injustice that such a concept denotes? After all, your god is a just god, isn't he?

See, I can understand the allure of a hell. People like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Phat (sp), Casey Anthony (jmo), well, them dying here seems to be them getting off light for what they did, doesn't it? They deserve to feel the pain they caused their victims, all of them, don't they?

But let's look at what your god has turned the notion of hell into. See, human beings accept, and embrace the idea of finite punisment for finite crimes. You run a red light, you get caught, you pay a fine. You rob a bank, you go to jail. You kill somebody, you either spend the rest of your life in jail or are killed yourself. Whatever the punishment, the key to justice is that it is finite- because the crimes committed are finite.

But hell takes that away, doesn't it? It provides infinite punishment for our finite crimes. Worse yet, thanks to "original sin" (one of the most evil, vile and corrupt notions the bible could ever come up with), each and every one of us is bound to be there. And for what crime? For being born? In what lunatic mind could this EVER be thought of as justice?

If you spend your life worshipping a god, unquestioning of his morality, unwilling to see the truth of "his own" words, based on the fact that you are afraid he will smack you down into a pit of fire, you will simply live your life in fear. Me, I choose to live my life without fear, full of optimism, loving the people around me, because this is the only life I get to do it.

And since you asked about Jesus asking me to kill or rape anyone, well not me personally, but "his words" give or gave these commandments:

Genesis 34:25-29: ²⁵And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males. ²⁶And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem's house, and went out. ²⁷The sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and spoiled the city, because they had defiled their sister. ²⁸They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field, ²⁹And all their wealth, and all their little ones, and their wives took they captive, and spoiled even all that was in the house.

Exodus 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour

Numbers 15:32-36: ³²And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ³³And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. ³⁴And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. ³⁵And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. ³⁶And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Like I said, it would seem that your god has no problem with commanding murder, but what about rape? well think about this passage:

Numbers 31:17-18:¹⁷Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. ¹⁸But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

God has no problem with ordering his people to slaughter other people, has no problem with ordering his people to slaughter children and has no problem with forcing the virgin women of his peoples' enemies into being concubines. Is this really the moral god you worship?

Genesis 34:25-29 -- because they had defiled their sister

Exodus 32:27 -- These were the ones who got Arron to build them a golden calf. The Jews that Jesus just brought out of bondage was looking for another god " A FALSE god "

Numbers 15:32-36: -- Jesus had already warned them. If someone tells you not to do something or it will end in death. I probably wouldn't do it. Maybe that's just me .. ESPECIALLY WORK .. LOL

Numbers 31:17-18 -- Nothing about rape in this. Were they to live them to die?? I doubt women could have taking care of themselves during this time. You didn't run to the local wal mart / kroger / what ever to get things

He warned them???? Seriously? So you think it's OK to kill or rape someone if you warn them first? What twisted morals.

With that logic I could post a "NO TRESPASSING" sign on my yard and be fully justified for shooting in the face any man, woman, child, or animal who broke that barrier. Oh yeah I'd have to first make it so that the sign is somewhere you could only see it if you were already trespassing... clever god that one

"Keep alive for yourselves" - that is definitely a reference to rape - god is telling them to make those women their concubines. Face it, your god told men to commit atrocious acts. And you sit here and try to make excuses for it! There is no way - NO WAY - that anything anyone ever did would justify my telling someone to rape them.

I don't believe the bible condones rape. Can you please provide that scripture.

If someone had pull me out of bondage. Feed me. gave me water. Killed a Egyptian army that was going to kill me, saved my life when the serpents were killing them and so on

I would listen. If it was dumb uneducated me.

It's been provided to you over and over again; it's condoned in several places. I'm not wasting my time providing it yet again. You've chosen to worship evil and nothing will change that.

You can't provide where it says rape is ok. Some how some one was punished for rape.

ndeepnow- I DID provide where it says rape is ok. Setting aside Numbers 31:17-18, there is also Isaiah 13:15-16.

I know that as a Christian you have had to develop an extreme level of selective memory. There are so many things in the bible that are either wrong, immoral, or just plain silly that you have to mentally edit out (or never read in many Christian's cases), that you must be carrying it over into the vine.

Do try to keep up dear.

Numbers 31: ^{17 (N)}Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man ^[g]intimately. ¹⁸ But all the ^[h]girls who have not known man ^[i]intimately, ^[j]spare for yourselves

NOTHING ABOUT RAPE THERE.. The girls were not for men to rape them. Get your mind out the gutter.

Isaiah 13:15-16 -- This is what will happen to Israel in the latter days. This will happen to Jesus people. This is what non-Christians will do to the Jew

So the only rape will come from Non-Christians

Hey, just found another fun passage:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Sooooo.... I guess that the appropriate punishment for a rape... is marriage? WTF?!?!? Forgive me, but having read how wives are supposed to act (on threat of death) in the bible, I'm sorry but I fail to see how this is dissapproved of. It seems to me that if you are willing to pay the right amount of money, you can rape any unmarried woman you want. And considering that polygamy was accepted/approved of, I'd say that it gives pretty broad range for a wealthy man to rape all he wanted.

No they were being punished. They had to take care of this women for the rest of her life.

I think that is a great punishment.

Your idea of punishment... for a man who rapes a woman... is that he gets to rape her

again

and again

and again

for as long as they both shall live?

That's your idea of punishment?

Why don't we just make pedophile priests adopt the kids they diddled while we're at it?

No I would say cut his balls off piece of crap .. stone him .. I guess Jesus is nicer then me

LOL .. just kidding bad joke -- Look fifty shekels of silver was a HUGE amount of money back in those days. HUGE. So this is it. This guy either took care of this lady for the rest of their lives or they would kill him.

It was this or that. Take care of a lady he raped or STONING TO DEATH.

But... who are you to decide what's moral? Who are you to say that Jesus is right/wrong/too nice? If HE says that a punishment is just, how DARE you question him?

Seriously though, how do you live with that moral compromise? Because I happen to agree with you on rapists.

Also, just wondering, how do you reconcile as moral a god who in the first four (out of ten!) commandments- the basis of all biblical law, I believe- makes for demands of worship and fealty to him, but leaves off the following sins?

Pedophilia

Rape

Incest (isn't that right, Lot?)

Slavery

Cannibalism

None of these are in the Ten commandments. None!

Shouldn't they be?

LOL .. just kidding bad joke -- Look fifty shekels of silver was a HUGE amount of money back in those days. HUGE. So this is it. This guy either took care of this lady for the rest of their lives or they would kill him.

Is that really the best you can do in justifying the bible's statement? That it was a bunch of money back then? REALLY?!?!?!

Also, 50 Shekels wasn't that much:

1 Troy ounce is 31.1 grams, so 570 grams is 18.32 Troy ounces. Silver right at this moment is $14.41 per Troy ounce, so 18.32 Troy ounces would be $264.10.

Imagine that- $264 dollars- for raping a woman, and then getting to rape her again and again and again for the rest of her life.

I've gotten speeding tickets more expensive than that.

How much did they pay for JESUS ?????

Is that really going to be your answer? How sad. According to your bible, Jesus chose his own path. Does a woman in the bible who is raped get to choose? Wherein does her choice lie? The moral rapacity of this is idiotic. Any good loving individual would be absolutely horrified by this.

Jesus sweated BLOOD. Jesus had to make a choice as a human to give his life for you.

You're ducking the issue. How do you live with such a morally bankrupt system? One that victimizes the victims, that fails to condemn crimes that cannot be justified.

How many men and women died, and died willingly, for Hitler's regime? How many hindus and buddhists have willingly set themselves on fire for their religion?

Being willing to make an extreme choice, or an extreme sacrifice, in the name of something does not make that thing holy.

This will be the difference. People that believe in Jesus at the end of time will be hated. Jesus prophesied it.

Look at the hate building in this country to Christians. The war going on against the cross. Against Religion, then you take the majority of the west of the world who isn't Christian. Do you believe the Muslim like Christians? " NO they Don't "

We are living in those times

guess what, I don't hate christians- I feel sorry for them. then again, Nazis, Pol Phat's supporters and KKK members are all hated- does that mean they're god's people?

I guess as long as they said a prayer and really reallllllllly believed just before they died, they'd be let into heaven though, wouldn't they?

And considering Hitler himself was a catholic who had close ties to the church I'm guessing he along with a large part of the rest of the nazi party would be there too.

And you still duck the issues- the issue- the immorality of the bible.

I thought like lit .. on Hitler

It is a bunch that does

Could I get an English translation of that please?

ndeep, you just said that you condone rape if the man pays the woman's family and then owns her, and gets to enslave her and rape her for the rest of her life. And then you keep evading Chicken when he points it out to you. Your response was "that was a lot of money back then."

Your morals are atrocious. You condone rape and slavery. What a vicious, horrific attitude you have - all because you worship evil.

@katrix- let's go easy on ndeep- he may very well have a tremendous moral standard. The problem is that he's trying very hard to reconcile that which he knows is right and good with what he reads in the bible. It's a hard thing to do and I did it for a lot of years, so I sympathize with him.

But since he thinks I should burn in hell for having to have differring views about the existance of a god, my sympathy is somewhat limited...

Good point - it's just very hard for me to sit here and watch him try to justify rape. I've never suffered through that myself, but I have a few friends who have, and it's hard for me to take his attitude. I know for a fact that being sold to their rapists would NOT have been the right thing for my friends, or for anyone else!

again the man was punished. The girl was taken care of. Would you rather to kill the rapist? Would you cast the first stone? COULD YOU

Would you cast the first stone? COULD YOU

I could. Give me a pile of rocks and I'll gladly chuck them at my rapist.

The fact that you think the girl is being "taken care of" means you are delusional to the point of absurdity. Why the @!$%# would you think a woman might want to MARRY her rapist??

What the @!$%# is wrong with you??

I'm with kaviaq- I'd gladly chuck the first stone. Hell, I'll build a trebuchet just so I could chuck a much bigger stone.

Seriously though, there is a perfectly good explanation for why the bible condones what it condones, while damning what it damns. You gotta understand that the bible was written at a time when all of humanity had a different set of morals. A set that said that women were to be treated as property. A set that said that owning another human being was a permissable act. A set that did not discuss child molestation. A set that was warlike, brutal and bloody, and had no compunctions about dashing the children of one's enemies against the rocks. Many ancient texts from this time portrayed almost identical actions, attitudes and laws. The laws set forth for many cultures were just as ridiculous, predjudiced, arbitrary and ill-conceived (For proof look at the laws of ancient Babylon).

So the bible can't really be held accountable for the morality it approves of, can it?

Well, actually, it can.

If the bible is to be treated as anything other than a curious bit of folk lore from antiquity, it must hold up morals that should be ones which can be embraced to this day. If the god of the bible is to believable as being a real figure, one who is both eternal and unchanging (Psalm 102:25-27; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8), the moral code he lays forth must be one which can be held to the highest standards at any point in history!

Does the god of the bible live up to that standard?

My answer is "no"

Be honest with yourself ndeep- can you really say he does? After all the evidence, after all the quotes that come directly from your bible, how on earth do you ignore the immorality that it allows, says nothing about and even professes to be good?

Y'know, I've often heard athiests accused of being morally relativistic. I'd argue that christians, in cherry picking the bible the way they do are far more guilty of this than any athiest could ever be.

So you want to throw the first stone. But you can't stand to know Jesus is going to send all who don't believe to the lake of fire.

I didn't think you were to judge.

I don't really know every bit of their mind set. I don't know how people really were 3500 years ago, BUT I KNOW JESUS TO BE ALL LOVING .. HE DIED FOR YOU

Ndeepnow, are you then saying it's a good idea for a rapist to get to keep and continually rape his victim for the rest of her life?

And people's mindset should never, by your reasoing, enter into this discussion Ndeepnow. If the bible is the written, breathed word of GOD/JESUS, the morality of what he wrote should be just as true now as it was 3500 years ago or 35000.

If your god condones slavery, he is less moral than me

If he advocates the wholesale slaughter of women and children, he is less moral than me.

If he condones rape, he is less moral than me.

If he says NOTHING about child molestation, he is less moral than me.

If he gives a rape victim over to her victimizer to be raped over and over again for the rest of her life, he is less moral than me.

Show me where he condoned these actions. Jesus says any man that steal a man should be put to death. The man was punished for his rape. I'm sure if he just raped the girl everyday after he was punished they would have stoned him to death. He's punishment was to take care of this lady for the rest of her life for what he had done.

I think it's funny you can fault Jesus but you don't have nothing to say about the other side. What about the people they went to war with? BUT I guess just like today. Most liberal think America is bad and the muslim nation are great.

Well if you beleive that then I'm sure you believe Jesus is wrong and the other side was great.

Ndeep I've SHOWN you many times where he condones these actions.

I've even shown how often he encourages and even mandates them.

Quit jumping through hoops to claim your god is in any way just.

See, I work in a business where there are multiple agencies with differing standards who have a say in how I operate. In order to operate under these circumstances, I operate by a simple axiom: always operate according to the highest standard available. I try to carry this over to my life too- no matter what standards are laid out before me, I choose the highest set of standards I can live by.

Your god sets some exceptionally low standards.

And your argument that "oh the other guys were worse" is completely illegitimate. Regardless of who you're comparing yourself to, if you're the god by which all morality is measured, you cannot, in any way, be morally inferior to anybody, ever, in history.

Please come back when you actually have some sort of legitimate argument.

But you are looing at it just from that point. have you examied the other side. What did they do? Do you know?

Why did Jesus Flood the earth? Do you know?

have you ever aske yourself these Questions?

I have asked myself those questions. Please try to remember that I was a devoted christian for 30 years of my life, and, like you I tried to reconcile myself with the injustice of what was there. Now, let me ask you a question- have you ever thought about how Jesus flooded the earth? The absolute impossiblilty of that happening? Any of it?

How long till you finally see that the bible should be treated with exactly the same respect as greek, babylonian, norse and egyptian myths?

I knew you would show your calling card.

1 John 2:^{19 (AY)}They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, ^(AZ)so that ^[d]it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Thanks for the concern but I'm good. I was just trying to ask if him / anyone has ever thought about the other side. Have you ever wondered why Jesus would say these things.

Ndeepnow, you show your colors in claiming that I'm showing mine. You show one of the greatest logical contradictions of the Christian mindset, one I grappled with back when I was winning awards for preaching in high school, one i grappled with after high school when I briefly considered seminary, and one I just got tired of grappling with after a while.

the whole Jesus sacrifice thing seems to me to ring false. I could rape, steal, murder, violate dead people, commit cannibalism and commit unspeakable horror, but if I say before I die, Hey god I believe in ya!, then presto, I'm admitted into the kingdom of heaven? After all there is no deed that cannot be forgiven by the blood of the lamb, right?

Meanwhile, on the other side, people like Ghandi, Einstein, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, et. al., are condemned to the burning fires of hell for what? For being born in the wrong place, at the wrong time? For bruising the ego of God? Eternal suffering and punishment for being around in the BC era.

And what of the 50 BILLION children who have died in the history of mankind? Where goeth these souls?

Either Jesus died "for our sins" and we, each and every one of us, have a free pass to heaven (and there is no justice), or nothing any of us ever do will ever be enough to get into heaven (and there is no justice). Either way, your god continues his trend of being a murdering, unjust, immoral bastard who hands out condemnation or blessings with no sense of justice or rightness.

It's all about the heart. If you ask only to get yourself out of trouble then you will not make it to heaven. You have to truly mean it. You should know this. That's why you can't force anyone to believe in Jesus. If this person just does it to save their neck and Jesus knows this then this person will never be aloud in heaven.

All those you speak of had heard of Jesus. They made their Choice. I believe kids have a free pass up to 20 years old.

You have a choice now.

Aristotle- born 384 bc.

Plato- born 427 bc.

Socrates- born 469 bc.

And do you really really want to give passes to kids up to 20 year old? I recently read a story about a kid who was 14 and just got convicted of being a main assasin for one of the cartels donw in Mexico. Dude fed his victims to pigs. Do you really want to give that guy a pass to heaven?